A little different spin on finding a "Plug & Play" live rig

[alexclaber]

I think speaker sizes matter, but brands not so much.

Now as soon as I read this I realise that your understanding and knowledge of speakers is rather limited. Next you'll be telling me that watts are what matters...

It is very easy to make a head transparent. It is also very easy to find what preshaped voicing is inherent to different heads. It is impossible to make a cab truly transparent but a talented designer can get close - unfortunately most bass cabs are designed by people who think it merely comes down to speaker diameter and thermal power handling (i.e. the marketing department).

Regarding aluminium cones, these suffer from serious break-up resonances in the treble region due to a lack of self-damping. If you use a full crossover as on a hi-fi speaker then you can avoid exciting these. If you do not then you get the characteristic aluminium tone. PJB speakers do not use aluminium cones.

Alex

 

[Visirale]

Now as soon as I read this I realise that your understanding and knowledge of speakers is rather limited. Next you'll be telling me that watts are what matters...

It's all your opinion. And no, I took physics, I know how watts affect actual volume.

You may have discredited me when I said that, but I discredited you when I saw your rig . Like I said, this is really all opinions. The OP needs to go out and play what he can, and that's going to give him the best results, not probing talk bass for opinions (we're all biased).

Like I said. From my own personal experience, as long as the cabs aren't absolute crap, it's easy to get a decent sound out of them. Different head designs have had a much greater affect on my sound.

I won't be arguing this point anymore.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Who says?

I can often listen to a record and pick out an Ampeg, regardless of the bass being used. I'm not always accurate, mind you (I could probably be fooled by a well EQed SansAmp), but generally, I am as long as it's a good bass mix.

On the other hand, I use a BBE Bmax, which I consider a pretty transparent preamp. Even though I've played the BBE for years and should be familiar with its "instrinisic tonal characteristics," I'm pretty confident that that if you gave me a blind test and asked me to name the amp being used in a recording, I wouldn't be able to discern a Bmax if it were being used. On the other hand, I bet I'd be more accurate at telling a Jazz Bass from a Stingray if it were being played through the Bmax rather than the Ampeg.

Of course, this is all conjecture that I'm stating here. I guess to really have credibility with what I'm saying, I'd have to put this claim to the empirical test. I do agree that transparency is a pretty subjective term, and I also believe that 100% transparency is impossible, especially when you introduce speakers into the mix. However, I do believe that transparency does exist.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The Hartke cabinets that I have played have a more pronounced top end agressive played finger style and more brittle almost like allot of tweeter when slapping IMO. Not a bad sound but not my cup of tea. I've heard guys that sound killer with those cabs and if you love them more power to you. My only experience with PJB is on the small neo combo amp so I can't speak to that...

The Guild Hartke cabs I mentioned had no tweeter.

BTW this has nothing to do with whether I love something or not.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Maybe cabs are your thing. They're not mine. I've owned combos (fender bassman 60, hartke kickback 12) and quite a few cabs (ampeg 810e, mesa boogie diesel 410, mesa boogie powerhouse 212, SWR 210s and 115s). I could get a good usable sound out of all of them that for the most part sounded the same. My tone was never too different out of any of them.

Maybe cabs are my thing? Never heard that one before. Actually sound is my thing and everything that goes into that. If you haven't experience the difference that cabs can make, you're not alone. Lots of folks haven't. But there most definitely can be a difference.

However, I've owned 3 different heads. An ampeg svt350h, mesa boogie bass 400, and my markbass LMII I use currently. Those affected my sound IMMENSELY more than the cabs ever did. That's where I'm speaking from... my own personal experience. The ampeg was muddy (given it was a horrible SS ampeg). The mesa was glassy with some nice break up, and the LMII is a good mixture of them both... For my future recording setup, I'm going to have an all tube head (probably an svt and a mesa) and a good solid state head. I'm not too concerned about cabs... for me, if it works, it works.

And I could definitely spot an aluminum cone speaker if it was in the room with me. I spent 2 years using the kickback combo in jazz band, and it has a lot of "zing" to it. Certain frequencies shine through a lot easier with the aluminum rather than paper.

Too bad we can't test that. As to zing, unless you're going over the top with EQ somewhere or are using an unusually zingy instruments... I haven't seen it.


BTW I can spot one when I see it too

But we can just agree to disagree .

Yes, that's where we are.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's all your opinion. And no, I took physics, I know how watts affect actual volume.

You may have discredited me when I said that, but I discredited you when I saw your rig . Like I said, this is really all opinions. The OP needs to go out and play what he can, and that's going to give him the best results, not probing talk bass for opinions (we're all biased).

Experience can make a difference. So can limited experience.

Like I said. From my own personal experience, as long as the cabs aren't absolute crap, it's easy to get a decent sound out of them. Different head designs have had a much greater affect on my sound.

I won't be arguing this point anymore.

 

[unclekebm]

For the record, I never used the word "transparent"

In fact, I'd actually describe what I'm looking for as simply an amp that is... I dunno, dry, , clear, loud, and wide?

There we go... from now on, let's focus on potential rigs that are dry, clear, loud, and wide.


Nothing that is colored, hot, or focused need apply!

IMO that description is a LMII...

 

[peterpalmieri]

The Guild Hartke cabs I mentioned had no tweeter.

BTW this has nothing to do with whether I love something or not.

Why didn't they have tweeters?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Why didn't they have tweeters?

Because that's how they were designed. Again, they were Guild/Hartke cabs. Before tweeters/horns became prevalent. After I had pieced my rig together through pawnshop finds (GH 410, GH 115, AMP BH420... all found for $150 each) I saw Daryl Jones using the same rig with Miles Davis. And it sounded great. Just like mine did.

 

[JimmyM]

Why are we arguing which is more important? It's all important. On the other hand, it's all completely unimportant as well. I can't say I've ever decided whether or not I liked a bassist by his amps.

 

[ljazz]

I determine how well an amp works by what I hear onstage. Even with no PA support I can still typically tell how it sits in the mix.



I like GK gear but I have definitely heard gear that sounds better to me live. OMV.

More power to you if you can judge your out front sound based on what you hear onstage. My experience tells me that 99% of the time, it doesn't work that way. Walk out front with a long cord or wireless, and it usually sounds different.

I maintain what I've said about the GK gear. I agree, there are a lot better sounding rigs.... better sounding to this bass players ear..... but as a "listener" its inherent voicing sits in the mix in a way that even non-bassists appreciate. When I went shopping for my current rig (to replace my SWR rig), the main thing I did was have my wife, and guitarist's wife help me based on what we were hearing in the clubs. I swear, I was all set to buy a late 70's SVT... I had a great deal on one lined up (I should have bought it anyway). Even though I bought the 700rbII (I had the 1001rbII first, for about a week, but returned it for the 700), the hands down winner to the girls every time was the 800rb through 410's.

We can make ourselves sound as good as we want.... but that doesn't always translate into something that sounds good to the crowd in a live context.

Ljazz

 

[JimmyM]

More power to you if you can judge your out front sound based on what you hear onstage. My experience tells me that 99% of the time, it doesn't work that way. Walk out front with a long cord or wireless, and it usually sounds different.

If that's the case, then you should consider readjusting your amp so you can. You can tilt it back with a stick or put it on an amp stand, or you can do what Brad does and stack cabs and get one up near your ear.

 

[ljazz]

I apologize.... as I read back through my post, it is apparant that I should not post prior to the first cup of coffee taking effect. It came out entirely combative, when in fact, I'm in agreement with Brad.

I actually have a problem reconciling what I believe to be a great sound, to what actually sounds good out front. 99% of the time, I have the problem..... I did not mean to imply everyone.

I find it amazing that I'm playing GK gear. Back in the early '90's, darn near everyone was playing them, and I just didn't like it. When my old lady said that is what she thought sounded best, I felt like slapping the silly woman. But there is no denying that most of the time, we're playing to non-bassists when we're live.

My time now is spent trying to reconcile the difference..... trying to make the GK sound palatable to my ear. Warming up the low end, keeping the mids sounding a bit more "organic".... all while keeping the ineherent punch. That is the reason I went with the 700 instead of the 800 or 1001.

Sorry Brad..... no disrespect was intended.

Ljazz

 

[unclekebm]

Why are we arguing which is more important? It's all important. On the other hand, it's all completely unimportant as well. I can't say I've ever decided whether or not I liked a bassist by his amps.

well said...

and to the OP, a LMII will give you what you want...

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry Brad..... no disrespect was intended.

Ljazz

Oh geez, it wasn't THAT bad! Besides, Brad likes a good windup as much anyone else. I say stick it to him!

 

[Brad Johnson]

I apologize.... as I read back through my post, it is apparant that I should not post prior to the first cup of coffee taking effect. It came out entirely combative, when in fact, I'm in agreement with Brad.

I actually have a problem reconciling what I believe to be a great sound, to what actually sounds good out front. 99% of the time, I have the problem..... I did not mean to imply everyone.

I find it amazing that I'm playing GK gear. Back in the early '90's, darn near everyone was playing them, and I just didn't like it. When my old lady said that is what she thought sounded best, I felt like slapping the silly woman. But there is no denying that most of the time, we're playing to non-bassists when we're live.

My time now is spent trying to reconcile the difference..... trying to make the GK sound palatable to my ear. Warming up the low end, keeping the mids sounding a bit more "organic".... all while keeping the ineherent punch. That is the reason I went with the 700 instead of the 800 or 1001.

Sorry Brad..... no disrespect was intended.

Ljazz

Absolutely none taken.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Oh geez, it wasn't THAT bad! Besides, Brad likes a good windup as much anyone else. I say stick it to him!

You would.


You're right, it wasn't bad at all.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Why are we arguing which is more important? It's all important. On the other hand, it's all completely unimportant as well. I can't say I've ever decided whether or not I liked a bassist by his amps.

That's why we're arguing... some people think one thing is more important than another when in fact in a given situation it could be entirely the opposite.

 

[Porksicle]

Updates!

I tried a couple combinations tonight, thought I'd post some quick results:

GK 1001RB-II w/ GK 410 and 212 Neo Cabs:

Pros: Was quickly able to dial in an absolutely awesome tone to work with my Jazz and Sterling w/o effects. Had to adjust a bit, but also got a quick gritty response with my P and BDDI

Cons: Couldn't dial in the BTB, didn't play well at all with my chorus on the Jazz or BTB - couldn't get the "shimmer", all I got was shrill.

LMII w/ GK 410 and 212 Neo Cabs:

Pros: You guys weren't lying - I was able to "lock in" with the Jazz and P right away, and play off the same setting with favorable results on my Sterling, BTB, and ATK. Very pronounced and was very responsive to each basses' tone settings and preamps.

Cons: Very few - noticed a little bit of trouble with the lower register of the "B" string when playing fast - it was still articulate, but volume seemed to drop off a little. I think i'd attribute this more to the cabs than the head.


So far the LMII is very, very nice - me likey a lot! The GK stuff is nice, but there were a couple things that I wasn't able to get done without doing some knob-twisting, and that's something I want to avoid if possible.

The Carvin and Avatar stuff will be here next week. The Avatar cabs will be here to stay. I've decided to keep them as they'll make a good addition to my rehearsal setup even if they don't make my "live rig" - you can't beat the price, so why not?

However, now that I like the LMII, I may have already snafu'd myself in this deal: I ordered a 410 and 212 Neo cab from Avatar, but I ordered them at 4ohms each, on the notion that I would be pairing them with my current amp head and run a 2ohm load. Now I see the LMII (and the GK stuff, as well) runs a min. of 4ohms

So here's a question - anyone else have this issue, and how did you overcome it w/o creating a fire hazard if you want to run both cabs?

 

[Stumbo]

My experience tells me that 99% of the time, it doesn't work that way. Walk out front with a long cord or wireless, and it usually sounds different.
Ljazz

+10
Since the bass sound wave size at 30hz is about 11.47 meters (>37 feet), 40hz is about 8.60 meters (>28 feet), 50hz is about 6.88 meters (>22feet), 75hz is about 4.59 meters (>15 feet), 100hz is about 3.44 meters (>11 feet) hearing how one sounds precisely in the mix on stage is not physically possible unless you're on a huge stage and 30 - 40 feet away from your rig. (see attached pic of formula from
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And even if you're on a huge stage, if the guitar amp is on the other side of the drummer, it's so directional (as compared to the bass) there's now way you can gauge it's volume relative to yours or to the mix.

That's why the P.A. mixer is near the back/middle of a venue.