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A note to all sound reinforcement engineers

dStar

dStar

Mar 1, 2012
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324
#1
The other night I saw Paul Rodgers at the Lyric Opera House in Baltimore. Now the Lyric is acoustically, one of the better houses in the Baltimore area (don’t get me started about Royal Farms Arena or DAR Hall in DC). The Lyric was deigned for live, unreinforced, music, so it’s pretty good acoustically and therefor no excuses for a bad mix. It seats about 2,500.

The PA was a standard, flown linear array + floor subs. The vocals and the guitar sounded great, the drums were good, but a little far back in the mix for my taste, except for the kick which had the same issues as the bass. Which brings me to the root of the problem, the guy on the board was in love with his subs. The bass and the kick were a muffled, boomy mess. It sounded like when you pull up next to a car with 1000w subs in the trunk and all you can here loud, muffled rumble vibrating the body of the car.

Now, Paul’s touring bassist, Todd Ronning is a pretty darn good bassist, he played Precisions through a SVT (probably VR) and two SVT 810s (probably also VRs), one cabinet was miked and there was an Avalon DI on top of the head. So, IMHO the sound guy had no excuses. He had to have had great tone to work with. But, unfortunately all I could hear was a muffled, rumbling, boomy mess. I even walked around a bit, to see if I was just in a bad seat, but no, it was the same all over. It was really disappointing because Pauls repertoire (Free, Bad Co., The Firm) has some pretty tasty bass lines and Todd does a great job playing them.

So,a note to all sound reinforcement engineers: Yeah, I want to feel the bass, but I want to hear it as well.
 
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#2
...and the sound collective breathed a sigh if relief at this now-found information...:rollno:

Is it not enough to just chalk it up to a less-than stellar show and hope for a better one next time? I've seen plenty of bands where the I felt like telling one of the musicians "Hey, you ain't the only up there on the stage, but I didn't run to a forum somewhere and make a blanket statement about it.
 
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#5
As mentioned earlier, very much a standard nowadays. I've heard good bass sound in all types of clubs as well as arenas, so I know it can be done, but it's seeming more and more like sound guys are choosing the usual dull, barely audible thud.

Some sound guys have yet to figure out that you can't always mix Blues, Soul, Rock, or Country with the settings they automatically use to get everything to sound like the first few Metallica albums.
 
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#6
Geri O said:
...and the sound collective breathed a sigh if relief at this now-found information...:rollno:

Is it not enough to just chalk it up to a less-than stellar show and hope for a better one next time? I've seen plenty of bands where the I felt like telling one of the musicians "Hey, you ain't the only up there on the stage, but I didn't run to a forum somewhere and make a blanket statement about it.
Click to expand...

I don't think this was an isolated incident, that's why I decided to "run to a forum somewhere". I've seen other shows with similar issues. But, I've usually chalked it up to the bad acoustics of the venue. C'mon, when your mixing a guitar, a bass, a drum kit and a vocal mic, it's really not that hard to mix it so you can hear each instrument.

I saw my first concert in '72, so I have some experience seeing live shows. I've also worked in the production side of touring live shows and I'm also a musician, so I know a bit about the technical side of things.

I realize bringing this to a collective of bass players is preaching to the choir, but I expected some support from my fellow bassists, not condescending criticism.

BTW, the show was stellar, the bass mix was awful.
 
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#10
Ok come a trend but why ? Is the trend due to the guy mixing ? Is the trend due to audience expectations ? Is the guy mixing being told to run hotter subs ? Big time show, the guy at the board may not be calling the shots - the guy who owns the system or the promoter has the last call... " Come on, let me hear those subs!"

How many times have you been nest to a Honda Civic at a stop light and wanted to jerk the wires of the moron's subs ? only to save his hearing of course ;-)

I've heard plenty of thrash with enough kick in it to curdle my gizzard... And that's the studio cut.

I'm not saying I like it but possibly the what we are hearing is a change in taste and expectations. I personally like my drums to lead but to sound like drums - not some over hyped metal thing... And by lead, I mean they are forward in the mix but the mix is still an actual balanced mix. My rock and roll chops were pretty much determined by Zeppelin I and II. So that's kinda natural I think...

Automatically slagging the guy at the board demonstrates some lack of understanding the biz... IMO it's also why there are a bunch of great sound guys with pro resumes who are doing great local/regional work as owner/operators... The guy at the board may be an iron ears moron... But then how did he get that gig ?
 
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#11
I guess I should have framed my post as "has anyone else noticed this trend in live reinforcement?"

I have no problem with having my rib cage vibrated, but I'd also like to actually hear the notes being played. I'm glad I have a HPF on my DI;)

Ok, maybe I was unfair to pin it on the guy at the board. But, someone made a bad call. Keep in mind this was Paul Rodgers, pure pre-sub classic rock... I really don't think Paul or Todd would be happy to hear what it sounded like in the house.
 
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#12
4Mal said:
So guy has an off night... How many off nights have you had ? (OP ?)

The one thing playing bass has in common with doing sound... The only time anybody notices you is on a bad night...
Click to expand...

Sure, I've had my share of bad nights, more than I care to think about, but I don't see how you can have a bad night EQing the bass guitar.

Maybe there was a technical problem and nothing from 200Hz-1kHz made it to PA drivers?

The point I'm trying to make is that this should have been an easy venue to mix in, with an easy band to mix and everything sounded great except the bass guitar.
 
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#13
What I'm attempting to point out is the very likely the level of the kick and the subs are out of the engineers hands... Do you have any idea what a small line array system costs ? Trust me, the opportunity to run one comes with strings attached. I see it all the time here. A couple of regional companies that are well funded and in it for the ego dominate ... The mixes suck but it isn't the fault of the guy at the board. It's the owner of the system that seems to need to impress with his subs -or- it's the crew chief that is essentially deaf above 4k - and if he can't hear the hi hat, then in his ears the mix is dull. Meanwhile patrons are stuffing bits of napkin in their ears.

I'd love to get my and my best engineer's hands on one of those rigs. All that is in the way is about 50 grand...

So... Maybe the sound guy is a dork... Maybe he can't mix a box of muffin mix. How then did he end up in control of a rig like that ? Maybe the reason he's a dork is that he didn't understand - or thought he could override - the opinions of capital. Seriously... That never happens and I rarely see the same engineer twice with the sound companies I was referring to.... And I always check... So bad mix is a bad mix but it really isn't ways the guy at the board. I get that it is still friggen' annoying.

One venue I hit regularly brings in one of my regional targets. Good bands. Pat Travers, Greg Rollie, Low Cash Cowboys, Curtis Salgado and a slew of others. Great outdoor space. Should be killer sound. I'm always way off axis lest the hat takes my head off. Crew chief seriously needs a reality check on his hearing... Good thing those db technology line array boxes don't go beyond 90 degrees... and to cover 500 people, they fly 2 subs and 4 mid-hi boxes per side and ground stack 2 double 18's per side. Yes you can also feel the kick. Even off axis. Brutal... My plugs are in early...
 
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#14
I am with you, and have noticed this trend. Perhaps It's the way modern music is being produced, and it's affecting live mixes. Tons of Kick and sending the bass to subs only (which is usually muddy and low in the mix compared the kick).

Personally when I perform, I always talk to them about my blend/mix, in the FOH and subs and try and guide them nicely, into the mix I'm looking for. To avoid what is being discussed.
 
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#15
Saw the Black Keys at Madison Square Garden a few years ago. A lot of their songs are just Guitar and Drums and the low end was just overwhelming. I have seen a lot of shows at MSG and none were this poorly mixed.
 
#16
I've pretty much stopped going to shows in larger venues because today's sound engineers (and I use that phrase generously) as a group are convinced that the kick drum should comprise 70% of the SPL coming out into the room, and it's not important for the listener to be able to discern the bass player's individual notes.

It's not a question of the room acoustics or limitations of the sound system, it's the fact that what the sound man hears in his head--and thinks the listener wants to hear--is total crap.
 
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#17
dStar said:
The Lyric was deigned for live, unreinforced, music
Click to expand...
This is your problem, right here.

This means the room was designed to boom, and unless it's a colosseum arrangement, there wasn't much acoustical planning done beyond that goal.

There is, further, generally little thought put into where the desk goes in these types of rooms, again, because it wasn't layed out to accommodate such a necessity. By convention, they usually stick it somewhere in the exact middle of the room, in line with the center of the stage, which is acoustically the LEAST boomy point in the room.

I'm not gonna deny the sub-heavy trend in live sound, but good odds are if you could put your ears at the exact point your sound guy's ears were, you would have rated it "moderately sub heavy," which unfortunately translates to "stupidly sub heavy" every else in the room.
 
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#19
Modern Soundpeople................SMDH. I went to a Kenny G (yes I did) some years ago and it was the best sound I ever heard! CD quality. Drums and bass set to perfection! During quiet passages you could hear a pin drop! The sound was perfect. Maybe they need to do seminars on how to do sound!

Saw The Rippingtons at a Jazz Fest a couple years back and the bass and kick drum were a sonic mess of nothing but unintelligent rumble! I was sitting just in front of the soundbooth and I kept looking at them with an evil eye (as if that would do anything) but nothing changed. Not enjoyable in the least! Same thing at an R&B Fest. All the acts I couldn't discern one instrument from another. Sounded like everyone was on 10. No balance. Just a wall of mush!
 
#20
I think I will be slammed on saying this but…what the hack:

Line arrays, well is a very good pa system (I love it) but my experience with them is they lack a range of low-mids right where the bass needs definition. But the good thing is you (sound engineers) can compansate for it.

And on another opinion is that live sound guys like to have the lows kicked in even if they don´t hear a note….And this is what I hate.

Just saying….(wait to put my helmet on, I can see bombs coming in…)
 
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