A note to all sound reinforcement engineers

[howlin]

I think Bobby Vega made a good point when he said that he likes to invite the FoH guy on stage and ask him if he can make his bass sound out front like it does to him on stage.

I think he also mentioned that a $20 handshake wouldn't hurt either . . .

 

[Geri O]

Okay, I'm back to take my last lumps for being a jerk (but I'm so good at it.......)

I actually agree totally that the "too much mud and mortar-shaking" approach is way too common.

I've spent a week with the old sound guy hat on with my former employer for the state fair. Six days of 14-hour on my feet days that I'm way out of shape for. And last night, I had to mix a Gospel choir that from the first note, their friends were all over me "turn this up, turn that down", to the point of arguing with each other over it. Had to have security remove them from the AV riser. So I was quite punchy when I came in and read the original post (which I figured would be removed by now over the bashing clause).

Honestly, I've given up. It seems to me that these days, all sound guys are the absolute expert and last word on what a band should sound like and how DARE anyone comment or make suggestions to criticisms, even the people that write their checks and provide their livelihood.

And at the same time, it seems to me that these days, the entire listening audience (players included) are the absolute expert and last word on what constitutes good sound and how DARE any sound guy not take every word of the audience as the Gospel of Good Audio (irregardless of the fact that those words vary insanely, except for the opinion of way overhyped low end these days) and follow their edicts to the letter.

Extremes? Of course. And I rarely see any middle ground.

But hey, what do I know? I was just plugging in my bass....

(Back-handed atonement? Yeah, I'm good at that, too...)

 

[Smooth_bass88]

The thing that gets me about the situation, is that bands have been playing in large venues for close to 50 years now. And still front of house engineers still haven't figured out how to make the bass clear. There are some notable exceptions, Phish for example, is one of them. Mike is clear and loud.

 

[Geri O]

I think I will be slammed on saying this but…what the hack:

Line arrays, well is a very good pa system (I love it) but my experience with them is they lack a range of low-mids right where the bass needs definition. But the good thing is you (sound engineers) can compansate for it.

And on another opinion is that live sound guys like to have the lows kicked in even if they don´t hear a note….And this is what I hate.

Just saying….(wait to put my helmet on, I can see bombs coming in…)

No bombs, but that has been said a lot about line arrays...

We've done and seen measurements made of the modern line arrays in use today. They are fully capable of producing low mids, as well as the rest of the frequency spectrum they were designed for.

It's thought that sound guys over-hyping the subs over-shadows what the low mids are doing. Which is a shame, because that part of the PA, properly mixed with the subs, is where the impact, or punch of the kick drum and bass come from.

Just a thought.

 

[Geri O]

One of the absolute best mixes I ever heard in my life was Blood, Sweat, and Tears on our little ol' fair rig last Wednesday night. I mean, as close to perfect as I've ever heard. FOH guy has been there 30 years. And he made it look stupid easy, too.

 

[ArtechnikA]

Every time this topic has come up in the past couple of years - and it does, with some regularity - it always seems to come back to two musical styles popular to audiences now:

Country and HiPhop.

For some reason, sound guys (or venue managers) think all music is supposed to sound like that, because the 'popular' music sounds like that.

 

[jthisdell]

Here in SW VA there is a new venue The Harvester. When they opened they really spent a lot of time designing the interior renovations (an old farm equipment dealer) and the sound system. The result is the clearest sound I've ever heard. Saw the Steep Canyon Rangers there awhile back and I complimented the sound guy. He said he could not claim any credit as the system was so well designed and the hall so well tuned that even he was amazed at the sound.

 

[RoadRanger]

(which I figured would be removed by now over the bashing clause).

Yah, it's rare to hear a good mix these days, for lots of the reasons stated in this topic. Thought I'd get threat in before the hammer came down .

I was actually doing mostly sound gigs until recently - but the folks hiring yah are generally hearing damaged (as are their "fans") and want to "get their money's worth" so stoopid loud subs and "tear your head off" highs are in demand. Kinda funny, more often than not I'd have audience members come up to me and thank me for not assaulting them . I still work with a circle of older pros (session and ex-touring guys) - no more hobby bands except for the ones I play in .

 

[DWBass]

How hard can it be to "make it sound like the record"??

 

[Guitalia]

Hmmm. We had a sound guy scheduled to do the mix at my band's Baltimore show last Friday (the day before the Paul Rodger's show in Baltimore). He cancelled with a week's notice. He never cancelled a show before. Interestingly, he bought some line arrays last year and has been itching to use them.

Coincidence?

We didn't mind the cancellation, because we got a replacement who charged less and did a great mix.

Great, that is compared to the kick-drum-dominated, intestine-churning sound that we've been putting up with from the other guy.

 

[MatronMother]

Too bad the show was not up to par. Although I can do live sound I choose not to for reasons mentioned previously. More often then not the sound guy is getting pulled in many different directions and is told what is wanted even if it sounds bad. This may or may not be the case at every show but is at more then people realize, unfortunately. Not that this makes anything alright...just a observation.

 

[1954bassman]

Like others here, I have had bad experiences with sound persons, and / or PA systems. But to be honest, most of my encounters here in western NC with pro sound companies have been stellar. But the events I play at are family friendly events, so the sound guy/gal is professional in most every aspect of the word.

 

[s0c9]

Had an AWESOME FOH mix for Neal McCoy's show last Sat.. Venue gear, SC48 on IEM's, not sure what was at FOH. FOH was LOUD (old guy on FOH and I'm sure he had hearing challenges), but everything was very CLEAR and DISTINCT and they were using the house amps/speakers!
But yes, I would agree with the OP and other commentary on the low mud..
I'm not so sure it's the FOH guy tho'.. or maybe that they are stuck in the mix position.
As a long-time local SR dude (as well as being onstage for both guitar and bass over the yrs) I'm VERY critical of live sound. Most local folks I have worked with or been staged by have been reasonably good with a few exceptions.
I went to the Kenny Chesney/Jason Aldean show at ATT stadium in Arlington, TX earlier this year. The audio basically sucked! HORRIBLE.
My daughter and I got to move down into the VIP section (long story) right before Chesney came on... The sound which was parallel with FOH mix position and off to the left was 1000% better, but still not great.
I'd guess it was PDG at mix position.
When does a FOH engineer get to "walk the floor" in an 90,000 seat stadium? idk.. but it was pretty bad!

 

[ArtechnikA]

...I went to the Kenny Chesney/Jason Aldean show at ATT stadium in Arlington, TX earlier this year. The audio basically sucked! HORRIBLE.
My daughter and I got to move down into the VIP section (long story) right before Chesney came on... The sound which was parallel with FOH mix position and off to the left was 1000% better, but still not great.

I think what I heard you say is that "somehow" the FOH was a lot better for the headliner than the opener.
That's a separate but equally common observation.
I've experienced that myself a few times.

 

[s0c9]

I think what I heard you say is that "somehow" the FOH was a lot better for the headliner than the opener.
That's a separate but equally common observation.
I've experienced that myself a few times.

No, that was NOT my intent.
I've seen/heard it happen and [even] been on the receiving end (stage-side) of it, but....given that Jason Aldean and ALL of the other artists that were on that night are National Acts, I think it unlikely that was the issue.
My point was that most FOH SE's I've seen over the years do NOT walk the house.. they mix for what they hear at their position. Be that good or bad.. with lots of kick/bass!

 

[BigNotes]

Agree that the trend to overemphasize the bottom to an exaggerated messy muddy charicature is insane. When I mix I look to balance several things: clear clean and thumpy bottom; all instruments having their place in the mix and nothing getting lost; a full sound w/o being uncomfortable or obnoxious; an overall musical mix. Not that I am a major player in the biz or am always successful at balancing all this. When receiving advice from folks attending the venue I consider the source and take it w. a grain of salt. Sometimes I need the input.

I recall hearing the original Marshall Tucker band on more than one occasion, in the Houston Coliseum, and being impressed with what a good bass tone Tommy Caldwell had. Clean, clear, bass. I want that in my mix!

 

[PortlandBass77]

This is why (and the $$$) that when one of my bands had a gig, we never hired a sound guy, just did everything ourselves.

 

[73jbass]

Having been of both side of this issue,I have to say the from a foh perspective,if you give me a muddy signal,thats probably going to be how it sounds in the PA. You can't always fix everything with the foh eq. Garbage in,garbage out.

 

[Mugre]

My left field observations,

Isn't there a TB injunction against soundman bashing?

Bass is simply harder to manage in any room than highs or mids. I guess they'd prefer a little too much rather than a little too less.

conventional wisdom in sound circles is that bringing in extra low end can help maintain "impact" in the face on SPL limits/laws.

Mugre

 

[Medicine Man]

I only run sound for small time acts, but my two most common complaints are that the acoustic drums are too loud (these meathead drummers never reign it in) or that the club owner/ bar manager wants the subs cranked up. Lots of idiots associate overblown kick drum with "a professional mix." Just sayin. They want the bottom end thick and muddy.