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A note to all sound reinforcement engineers

#42
I have been to many concerts over the last 10 years or so where this has been a problem. In my opinion, it is due to the fact that almost every sound engineer is mixing through headphones and therefore cannot adjust for the acoustics of the room. No excuse for it.
 
#43
One thing I've noticed is the tendency of the consoles to be placed dead center and just behind the center point, or on a balcony, or under the balcony, or on the loge... putting the sound guy in areas that are ripe with low frequency cancellations.

A lot of the concerts I've been too recently are way to heavy on the 55hz and lower frequencies. A few of the concerts were pumped up so loud by the headlining act's opening notes that most of the amp rack was hitting the limiters and even the vocals were becoming distorted (but I'm not sure that distortion was actually in the PA or in my ears from low freq overload).

Best sounding concerts I've been to in the last few years were in places with house sound, places too small/too old for the sound company to bring the "stadium rig", or with the consoles at 3/5ths of the way to one side of venue.

I think in general touring rigs have become too large (respective of their efficiency). I also think that sound companies are afraid to bring smaller rigs, not be as loud in the sub area, or bring a properly sized rig that doesn't look like the organizer's dream... Afraid of not getting more work next time, or being seen as a "small fry", or not being able to get the same rate next time.

There are plenty of unrealistic people out there that hire sound companies that expect a certain "look" to the front of house because they saw pictures of a 35,000 seat stadium setup and want their 3,500 seat venue to look the same... or are reassured by the size of the PA (even equate raw size with quality).
 
#44
Something to think about...I know a few sound engineers, good and not so good. None of them have ever had to do more than talk about what bands they have mixed for or who they know in "The Biz" to get a job. None of them have ever been turned down a huge touring act job as long as they say they have a mixed a comparably popular band before. Most of the guys in the Seattle area I know have had to turn down jobs because they start as part time to offset their day job and end up with too much work. So to assume that just because someone "got that job" means that they have a high level of experience and capability and not just that the sound company needs bodies might be a bit of a stretch. Also a side note, some of the best musicians I know have terrible ears regarding music and mixing anything other than their own instrument!
 
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#46
matt holt said:
Yea, it seems like right now that bowl-shaking "bass should be felt and not heard" thing is all the rage. It's an ear candy thing IMO-those sonic extremes are a cheap thrill, but really obscure the musical content, which, for some acts, helps a lot (the worst food is tasty with enough fat, sugar, and salt; thus the fast food industry). It really isn't fun if you actually care about hearing whats going musically-which, realistically, most people don't.
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That's my take
 
#47
i think our favorite bass freqs get lost in/at or near the crossover point and slope ... !!

i've noticed that in my small/medium sized PA days ... if those points aren't quite right for the room ... seems that EQ'ing just makes it worse ...
 
#48
I went to a show where there were 3 pretty heave deathcore/grindcore/djent influenced bands at El Corazon in Seattle (formerly and in the good days, The Graceland). They all sounded terrible despite good execution and great gear. Then, Meshuggah came in with the same amps for the most part (not sure if they rented gear and let the openers use it, but nothing was really changed on stage but the guitars and pedalboards) AND THEIR SOUNDGUY TOOK OVER THE BOARD. What ensued was likely the heaviest, loudest and clearest sound I could ever imagine coming out of this venue. It could've been a few more bodies in the crowd soaking up sound, or it could have been any number of things, but I've gotta tell ya... if you can EQ 8 string guitars tuned to low F to sound clear with pulsing double kicks and heavily distorted bass it sounds soul-crushing! I met the guys after the show and told them to get their soundguy in on the after show party because he deserved it haha!
 
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#49
Geri O said:
...and the sound collective breathed a sigh if relief at this now-found information...:rollno:

Is it not enough to just chalk it up to a less-than stellar show and hope for a better one next time? I've seen plenty of bands where the I felt like telling one of the musicians "Hey, you ain't the only up there on the stage, but I didn't run to a forum somewhere and make a blanket statement about it.
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From the bulk of live shows I've been to or played, it apparently IS now-found information. The last time I heard a show with crisp, defined lows was probably in the 1970's.
 
#50
Geri O said:
Okay, I'm back to take my last lumps for being a jerk (but I'm so good at it.......)

I actually agree totally that the "too much mud and mortar-shaking" approach is way too common.

I've spent a week with the old sound guy hat on with my former employer for the state fair. Six days of 14-hour on my feet days that I'm way out of shape for. And last night, I had to mix a Gospel choir that from the first note, their friends were all over me "turn this up, turn that down", to the point of arguing with each other over it. Had to have security remove them from the AV riser. So I was quite punchy when I came in and read the original post (which I figured would be removed by now over the bashing clause).

Honestly, I've given up. It seems to me that these days, all sound guys are the absolute expert and last word on what a band should sound like and how DARE anyone comment or make suggestions to criticisms, even the people that write their checks and provide their livelihood.

And at the same time, it seems to me that these days, the entire listening audience (players included) are the absolute expert and last word on what constitutes good sound and how DARE any sound guy not take every word of the audience as the Gospel of Good Audio (irregardless of the fact that those words vary insanely, except for the opinion of way overhyped low end these days) and follow their edicts to the letter.

Extremes? Of course. And I rarely see any middle ground.

But hey, what do I know? I was just plugging in my bass....

(Back-handed atonement? Yeah, I'm good at that, too...)
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If only they PAID you guys to do it...
 
#51
Random rant:
Saw Booker T, at a casino, in Milwaukee. A newer venue, with excellent system. The bass was most prominent, but muddy. More felt in the chest than notes heard. Barely could hear the B3. Called the stage manager the next day to advise about the bad sound. He said not their fault, Booker T brought his own engineer. I emailed Booker Ts management to say that we could not hear the organ. They told me that they never have their own engineer, they were aware of the problem, and that they "tried multiple times" to get the engineer to change the mix, and were not successful. So the venue ignored Booker's request, and lied to me about it. (Booker's agent apologized for it, thanked me for giving the feedback, and offered me two free tickets for any other show I cared to attend. Booker T: Class act. Casino: Incompetent liars.)
 
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#52
I think I mentioned before seeing Alan Jackson at the Nokia Theater recently and the mix was a muddy mess. And this was in what is supposed to be a premier venue. Zac Brown played the Hollywood Bowl this past Friday and Saturday nights and the sound was wonderful... I felt the bass in my spine and could hear every note. Absolutely first class sound engineering. We saw Chicago in a small venue recently, the Fox Theater in Bakersfield, and the mix was amazing. I'm not convinced it's a conscious decision to always be heavy with subs; sometimes guys just miss the mark at a particular venue.
 
#54
JackANSI said:
There are plenty of unrealistic people out there that hire sound companies that expect a certain "look" to the front of house because they saw pictures of a 35,000 seat stadium setup and want their 3,500 seat venue to look the same... or are reassured by the size of the PA (even equate raw size with quality).
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Ooo, another of my pet peeves. Here's my system with the smaller subs I use (I have about 6 sets :facepalm:). No prob covering ~300 people at family friendly levels although I'd usually take my Danley Th-Mini subs for that. I've used the same tops for 1000 with the BIG 18" folded horn subs I have - I was told it sounded fine a measured 1/2 mile away :cool: although I did have to re-tighten the screws in my tops afterwards :nailbiting::

PA.jpg


Yes, those are my GK 212MBE's - 4 ohm 34 lb 2x12's high passed at 45 Hz and fed 600w each from a NU3000 :D ! And all eight of my 10" coaxial "poor-man's MicroWedges" :cool:. No "concert stacks" and bigarse monitors here :p.
 
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#56
#58
Jamvan said:
My apologies if I've double-posted this link but one of my sound engineer buddies posted this as its getting out of control and he can't stand it.

Invalid Link Removed
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From the article, "There have been times – in really bad rooms – where I’ve turned the subs off entirely, as they’re doing more harm than good."

I played in a club with the subs under the stage and the kick was so loud and so muddy that it was masking the bass. When I played on the kick, you couldn't tell which was bass and which was kick. The soundman kept saying, "There's nothing I can do about it." To make a long story short I refused to work with that soundman again and the next soundman mixed us perfectly - same club, same equipment.

I don't know anyone that like that 'punch in the chest, drowning everything else out' kick drum - including drummers. I don't know why so many soundmen think it's good. :rollno:
 
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#59
The problem with sound reinforcement at halls designed for acoustic music is that the place is too reverberant. It is good for unamplified instruments, but usually things get too muddy for lets say a rock band. Usually the RT60 time is too long. I've played in such places many times, and had the same problem more or less. Some engineers can handle that a little better, but the problem is there in general.
 
#60
callofcthulhu said:
This is your problem, right here.

This means the room was designed to boom, and unless it's a colosseum arrangement, there wasn't much acoustical planning done beyond that goal.

There is, further, generally little thought put into where the desk goes in these types of rooms, again, because it wasn't layed out to accommodate such a necessity. By convention, they usually stick it somewhere in the exact middle of the room, in line with the center of the stage, which is acoustically the LEAST boomy point in the room.

I'm not gonna deny the sub-heavy trend in live sound, but good odds are if you could put your ears at the exact point your sound guy's ears were, you would have rated it "moderately sub heavy," which unfortunately translates to "stupidly sub heavy" every else in the room.
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The bassist, although pro, might have been a significant part of the problem - he was playing through two 8x10's in a room designed for acoustic music. And then reinforced with subs and pa....sounds like dumb & dumber to me.
 
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