A note to all sound reinforcement engineers

[4Mal]

Hey Mark... That may be true in major markets but.. Out here in the sticks we light fires with tour riders... Actually we do the best we can to fill but while I can spell Midas and Meyer I can't afford it... Nobody else can either... For the most part, everybody gets along. At least in my company and with the artists.

Based on my read of your post what you're really saying is that Paul Roger's chosen engineer basically delivered a sub par mix. That may in fact be the case. I've seen management trip over itself though and the poor guy at the board is screwed from the start. So here's to sticking up for the poor guy with at least a chance, he was doing what he could.

One question - did the OP get screwed with seat selection? Did he get up wander around and hear all the parts of the room.

 

[dStar]

OP here. Yes, walked around the venue. Walked in front of the board, in fact.

I used to be a LD, I've been on tour with several mid-level bands, so although I'm not a sound engineer, I'm not ignorant of the issues faced by them.

This was the first show that I've seen at this venue, so I have no idea if this is typical sound for it. It could be that it's a difficult room.

 

[1954bassman]

Okay, so I went to a balloon festival today and heard two live bands (blues-flavored). Both bands were very good.

The sound was as running about 94dB where I was setting, and as others have talked about here, it was "LKDS (Lead Kick Drum Syndrome)".

The FOH speakers consisted of (8) subs on each side (looked like 18's) and four (I think) line array tops.

The vocals, guitars, and keys were audible, drums plenty loud, however the kick was mixed way out of balance with the rest of the band. Bass guitar was mush. Too bad, since both dudes seemed to be good players from the looks of their playing.

I asked my wife what she thought of the sound, and she says: "The bass is way too loud". I said really? Watch the bass player's hands and see if you can tell what he is playing. Then she said, no, the drums are too loud.

This was a family-oriented event and both bands were pretty good bands. I felt sorry for their bass players.

the sound was actually better about 1/2 mile away.

 

[Geri O]

Okay, so I went to a balloon festival today and heard two live bands (blues-flavored). Both bands were very good.

The sound was as running about 94dB where I was setting, and as others have talked about here, it was "LKDS (Lead Kick Drum Syndrome)".

The FOH speakers consisted of (8) subs on each side (looked like 18's) and four (I think) line array tops.

The vocals, guitars, and keys were audible, drums plenty loud, however the kick was mixed way out of balance with the rest of the band. Bass guitar was mush. Too bad, since both dudes seemed to be good players from the looks of their playing.

I asked my wife what she thought of the sound, and she says: "The bass is way too loud". I said really? Watch the bass player's hands and see if you can tell what he is playing. Then she said, no, the drums are too loud.

This was a family-oriented event and both bands were pretty good bands. I felt sorry for their bass players.

the sound was actually better about 1/2 mile away.

Was that in Natchez, MS?

 

[seamonkey]

There's an occasional stinker but overall FOH is sounding good and mixed good at shows I go to.
Take some attenuating ear plugs if you're too close and you'll be amazed how well balances mixes often are.
Too many people overrate their own hearing. Or get use to a bass boosted car stereo sound and expects the whole world likes it by default. The FOH sound is for Most people. A few of the biased will have to put up with it.

 

[walterw]

Been there lots of times: Reverberant space, band super loud on stage, very little control in my hands. Just try to get the vocals on top of the mess and pray for a quick death.

so you're saying after all the hard work you've gone through to make it to the upper levels of the sound biz it's still like mixing in bars? Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed

 

[dStar]

Hmmm... The feeling that I'm getting here is that we bass players should stop obsessing about our tone. It's just going to be lost in the mix anyway

 

[Mark Reccord]

Hey Mark... That may be true in major markets but.. Out here in the sticks we light fires with tour riders... Actually we do the best we can to fill but while I can spell Midas and Meyer I can't afford it... Nobody else can either... For the most part, everybody gets along. At least in my company and with the artists.

Based on my read of your post what you're really saying is that Paul Roger's chosen engineer basically delivered a sub par mix. That may in fact be the case. I've seen management trip over itself though and the poor guy at the board is screwed from the start. So here's to sticking up for the poor guy with at least a chance, he was doing what he could.

One question - did the OP get screwed with seat selection? Did he get up wander around and hear all the parts of the room.

Accommodations for available gear in smaller markets isn't an issue and I've been down that road lots of times as well (on both ends). As long as the details are sorted out ahead of time it's never a problem. What annoys tour managers and techs is being promised one thing but getting another. As a touring guy, if a local provider gets in contact with me and says that there are things on the rider they can't provide, I'm perfectly cool with that. We'll sort out a way to make it work. However, being told that the production rider will be met and showing up to find that that actually isn't the case pisses me off to no end. These are the situations where I have told providers to go home assuming a substitute one could be found. Of course I've also been on the other side and have had touring guys flip out about rider substitutions that we had agreed upon weeks before when I first saw the rider.

I'm not necessarily saying that PR's guy delivered a subpar mix out of incompetence, though that's certainly not out of the question and wouldn't be all that surprising (Mr. cynical here ) but I don't think it was because the PA provider or promoter were dictating his actions. It's entirely possible that he was perfectly competent but was at the mercy of stage volume, venue acoustics and/or artist preferences. And yes, this happens more often than you might think. Van Morrison is one that sticks out for me. He basically wanted everything to be very much background noise behind his voice and that was the way his guy mixed, while complaining to me (as systems engineer) about it every night of a cross Canada tour. Too bad too because his band was ridiculously good. Very odd guy, that Van Morrison.

so you're saying after all the hard work you've gone through to make it to the upper levels of the sound biz it's still like mixing in bars? Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed

Sadly, it often is, right down to the number of utterly incompetent people behind the mixing console. I've worked with lots of major acts who hired a band member's brother or one of their buddies from their home town to mix sound and kept them on when they hit the big time despite them not knowing what they were doing. But then there are artists who care deeply about sounding good and will do whatever it takes to make that happen. It's a joy to be involved with those artists.

 

[1954bassman]

Was that in Natchez, MS?

No. I prefer not to say here, as who knows who is reading. PM me if you want, but event was nowhere near MS.

 

[Geri O]

Very well, that's fine.

We played a balloon festival in Natchez on Sunday and we were pleasantly surprised at how good the production was. Lots of low end, to be sure, but it wasn't too outta hand. Had a great day.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Unfortunately, some people take the name "bass" guitar too literal, and think that means it's an instrument with no usable frequency information about 150hz.

"Pitch and timbre? We don't need no freakin' pitch and timbre!"

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Every time this topic has come up in the past couple of years - and it does, with some regularity - it always seems to come back to two musical styles popular to audiences now:

Country and HiPhop.

I'm glad that rock producers are finally moving away from that pitchless, buried bass sound on records that had been fashionable for the past decade. The problem is now country producers are creaming their shorts over that garbage scooped bass tone that rock producers were pushing. My last main musical project was country, and any time I had to learn a Luke Bryan or Jason Aldean song, I always tried to track down a live national television performance so I could actually distinguish a bass line (pitch shifting and playing with the EQ on the Amazing Slow Downer helps some with the studio recordings); since, both of those respective artists' producers have a tendency to destroy their bass players' tone. Which is a shame, because Tully Kennedy is a monster on the Sadowskys.

 

[s0c9]

The problem is now country producers are creaming their shorts over that garbage scooped bass tone that rock producers were pushing. My last main musical project was country, and any time I had to learn a Luke Bryan or Jason Aldean song, I always tried to track down a live national television performance so I could actually distinguish a bass line (pitch shifting and playing with the EQ on the Amazing Slow Downer helps some with the studio recordings)

Being in a "Top-40" country band, I empathize... add to that.. in many cases the studio, single, album, live, itunes or youtube versions of the bass lines on those songs are DIFFERENT!
Which one to learn... ???

I recall getting a ***? look from my BL on a song we recently played live (sans rehearsal) for the first time. Not a tough song (why we didn't rehearse it first), but the bass line I played was NOT the same as the one on the version of the song he had been working from!

 

[dStar]

This off topic, sorry, but IMHO, when doing covers, there are two choices that work for me. Nail it, so that it sounds like the original, be that studio or live or make it your own. Almost there, doesn't work for me. Although, it works for my wife and probably for all the non-musicians in the audience. Although, I'd like believe that nailing it does register subconsciously, as better.

Nowadays, I prefer the make it your own thing that brings something new to the table kinda cover. But, I have a feeling the general public prefers it to sound closer to the recording, even if it's not quite right.

 

[s0c9]

This off topic, sorry, but IMHO, when doing covers, there are two choices that work for me. Nail it, so that it sounds like the original, be that studio or live.....

This is my philosophy.. plus it's generally easier to learn that way... but.. as I alluded 2 in my post above.. current nashville top-40 country offerings [more often that not] come with multiple versions of the song... depending on the source.. . so WHICH ONE DO YOU NAIL ???

The additional challenge comes when band members get itunes and youtube versions that have different leads and bass lines and come to rehearsal knowing THEIR version and think you are playing the wrong thing!!

 

[fantasticplanet]

i saw the life and times at the bottom of the hill (fairly small club) in san francisco, and eric abert's bass was incredibly loud, clear and had tons of boomy low end. absolutely unbelievable tone. he didn't have to use a lot of low end since the floor resonated so well.

 

[Geri O]

This off topic, sorry, but IMHO, when doing covers, there are two choices that work for me. Nail it, so that it sounds like the original, be that studio or live or make it your own. Almost there, doesn't work for me. Although, it works for my wife and probably for all the non-musicians in the audience. Although, I'd like believe that nailing it does register subconsciously, as better.

Nowadays, I prefer the make it your own thing that brings something new to the table kinda cover. But, I have a feeling the general public prefers it to sound closer to the recording, even if it's not quite right.

Great approach, no doubt.

I think the bass players can deviate from the original a bit, unless the band leader objects... Or you are playing "Roundabout" or "School Days"...

To me , it's important that the vocals are accurate, as well as guitar parts and any signature lines that are in the song (Like the intro piano part of "Behind Closed Doors" by Charlie Rich or "the drum intro of "Cum On Feel The Noize). People don't quite relate with bass parts note for note, but they most certainly know if it's not there.

Of course, I could be totally wrong...

 

[LiquidMidnight]

This off topic, sorry, but IMHO, when doing covers, there are two choices that work for me. Nail it, so that it sounds like the original, be that studio or live or make it your own. Almost there, doesn't work for me. Although, it works for my wife and probably for all the non-musicians in the audience. Although, I'd like believe that nailing it does register subconsciously, as better.

Nowadays, I prefer the make it your own thing that brings something new to the table kinda cover. But, I have a feeling the general public prefers it to sound closer to the recording, even if it's not quite right.

I know this is a slight derail, but I think the situation and style of music really play a part in that. Am I a going to learn Johnny B. Goode, Folsom Prison Blues, or Hoochie Coochie Man note-for-note? Definitely not. I'm a going to learn a Godsmack, Metallica, or Rush song note-for-note. Most definitely so.

This is my philosophy.. plus it's generally easier to learn that way... but.. as I alluded 2 in my post above.. current nashville top-40 country offerings [more often that not] come with multiple versions of the song... depending on the source.. . so WHICH ONE DO YOU NAIL ???

Just an anecdote here...I recently learned Buy Me a Boat by Chris Janson. While there is nothing wrong with the studio bass line, the live bass line just sounds better when performed live. The studio line sounds alright on the recording, because there's production and a bunch of other studio cats to fill out the sound of the song. That's not always the case with the live version.

Studio Version:



Live Version:

BTW, Janson is a great, great performer.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I don't think this was an isolated incident, that's why I decided to "run to a forum somewhere". I've seen other shows with similar issues. But, I've usually chalked it up to the bad acoustics of the venue. C'mon, when your mixing a guitar, a bass, a drum kit and a vocal mic, it's really not that hard to mix it so you can hear each instrument.

I saw my first concert in '72, so I have some experience seeing live shows. I've also worked in the production side of touring live shows and I'm also a musician, so I know a bit about the technical side of things.

I realize bringing this to a collective of bass players is preaching to the choir, but I expected some support from my fellow bassists, not condescending criticism.

BTW, the show was stellar, the bass mix was awful.

In '72, electrons were better and there were more of them.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I'm not a pro or a sound engineer, so I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about. That being said, if I go see a pro band, at a pro place with pro sound equipment, and they sound bad...I'm blaming the sound guy. Im sure it COULD be a lot of things...but it's MOST LIKELY the sound person. That's my uninformed opinion.

IMHO... Having paid the price of admission includes your right to speak up if you didn't like what you heard, and to do so regardless of any professional standing.