• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

A note to all sound reinforcement engineers

Favorite Quote

Billy Sheehan
Bass Guitar Mag:
What is it with these sound men these days?
Billy Sheehan: I know, I know. And being a bass player is notoriously tough when you are playing live. Unfortunately the bass is called a bass- but so are all low frequencies. The sound guy goes out in front, and you ask him, "Can you hear bass?" "Yeah. I can hear bass." He doesn't hear your bass guitar, but he hears some low-end rumble. I wish guitars were called trebles, because then guitarists would know exactly what we are talking about. " you hear treble?" Yeah I hear treble."
 
Is the guy mixing being told to run hotter subs ? Big time show, the guy at the board may not be calling the shots - the guy who owns the system or the promoter has the last call... " Come on, let me hear those subs!"
Now that hadn't occurred to me! It seems insane though, essentially mismanagement at a high level show like that.
 
The bassist, although pro, might have been a significant part of the problem - he was playing through two 8x10's in a room designed for acoustic music. And then reinforced with subs and pa....sounds like dumb & dumber to me.
Right? I hate amps that don't come equipped with volume knobs.
Oh, wait...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joedog
Now that hadn't occurred to me! It seems insane though, essentially mismanagement at a high level show like that.

I own my systems. I can call the shots - to a point. If the promoter wants crazy, up to the point of gear damage - It's my responsibility to provide countermanding advice - and then do what he decides - If I want to be hired back...
I don't like it but sound is enough of a gamble. Promotion is insanity... i simply don't have the dough to waste.
 
I don't think this was an isolated incident, that's why I decided to "run to a forum somewhere". I've seen other shows with similar issues. But, I've usually chalked it up to the bad acoustics of the venue. C'mon, when your mixing a guitar, a bass, a drum kit and a vocal mic, it's really not that hard to mix it so you can hear each instrument.

I saw my first concert in '72, so I have some experience seeing live shows. I've also worked in the production side of touring live shows and I'm also a musician, so I know a bit about the technical side of things.

I realize bringing this to a collective of bass players is preaching to the choir, but I expected some support from my fellow bassists, not condescending criticism.

BTW, the show was stellar, the bass mix was awful.

For the record I support your right and option to come here and vent about bad sound. It happens to all of us. And venting sometimes helps, even if only the person doing the venting.
One thing I dislike as much as bad sound, is people who sometimes criticize attack and invalidate others for communicating. It's called taking the low road and making others wrong instead of making others right and acknowledging other people. This is a hard life and a messed up planet sometimes, being negative only pushes things in the wrong direction.

As a bassist and a sound engineer, I appreciate your comments. When I mix, I try to eliminate mud and make everything clear so the mix is indicative of what is happening on stage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joedog
I don't know anyone that like that 'punch in the chest, drowning everything else out' kick drum - including drummers. I don't know why so many soundmen think it's good. :rollno:

Unfortunately, I do know people who like *that* very sound for bass and kick, my keyboardist , the new drummer and my soundguy(who's also a bassist), the keys and drummer both like alot of modern RnB and the soundguy like that new "bro country" crap so this should be of no surprise, I confirmed that they liked this sound when the drummer insisted on changing my tone and he cut all my midrange and treble entirely and said "that's the sound *I* want from a bassist", so I got 2 years left on my contract to deal with not really hearing myself or being heard FOH, it sucks but I'm legally obligated...

Last summer my pop group shared the bill with Collective Soul for the 4th of July
WP_20150704_17_16_33_Pro.jpg
WP_20150704_17_17_17_Pro.jpg


The day prior we opened for Sam Hunt, the difference in sound between the 2 was night and day, both had their own sound guys through the same setup...

If your not familiar, Sam Hunt plays the newer style of country and doesn't have a bass player but pre-recorded tracks and I had the pleasure of watching/listening to their sound check...

Well the tracked bass was already pretty dry and the soundguy proceeded to take any midrange completely out to the point where it sounded like a muddy but tuned kick drum, and then it got sickeningly loud where it was just felt, so I went far, far back walked around the field and it didn't clear up, but people seemed to like it(not me of course) like my keyboardist who had a huge grin on his face when they had this cranked/inaudible mess of low end...

On the 4th, Collective Soul had a much better sound with their sound tech, you could actually hear the bass and his attack, the kick had its place, everything was well balanced and it was the same stage/sound system from the day prior, and the best part was collective's sound check only took a 1/4 the amount of time that Sam Hunts did...

All that being said, some musician's/soundguys and audience members really dig that exaggerated sub sound, I don't, and I don't think that "one size fits all" approach works for all genres...I also believe though that not all sound techs are created(or trained) equal, I've had some great ones when I was doing the original thing exclusively...
 
Last edited:
This is why we only go to smaller venues now: one local eatery/dining hall(saw Stu Hamm solo act there), Warehouse Live in Houston(get an upper rail-side seat, stage left), and the lesser-known Scout Bar(south Houston). All the rest appear as DVD's on the big screen with big sound at home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 31HZ
The odds of any guitarist (bass included) turning down to a reasonable volume decreases in direct proportion to the size of the speaker cabinets. 16x10 is pretty slim odds.

Sound engineer: "Bass player, please turn down"
Bass Player: "Okay"
*turns down*

It's not hard. I've been asked before to turn my little 4X10" half stack down. It wasn't a hit to the ego, or some strange language that I didn't understand. I simply turned down. I've seen guitarists turn down too, though if one only had TB as a reference then that would seem utterly unthinkable.
 
I realize bringing this to a collective of bass players is preaching to the choir, but I expected some support from my fellow bassists, not condescending criticism.

BTW, the show was stellar, the bass mix was awful.

Some folks should read rule #1 before they decide to troll a thread. And I fully get & agree with you, by the way.
 
For the record I support your right and option to come here and vent about bad sound. It happens to all of us. And venting sometimes helps, even if only the person doing the venting.
One thing I dislike as much as bad sound, is people who sometimes criticize attack and invalidate others for communicating. It's called taking the low road and making others wrong instead of making others right and acknowledging other people. This is a hard life and a messed up planet sometimes, being negative only pushes things in the wrong direction.

As a bassist and a sound engineer, I appreciate your comments. When I mix, I try to eliminate mud and make everything clear so the mix is indicative of what is happening on stage.

+1. Well, not on the sound engineer part. I'm not a sound engineer, I'm a bookkeeper. Still, the fueled animosity shown towards a fellow TB'er for expressing their opinion was unsettling.
 
Haven't posted on TB for awhile but felt compelled to get in on this. I can identify with the OP' s frustration completely and I get it. Just to clarify, I have been playing bass for about 40 years and engineering (live and studio work) for about 38 years. I also have a degree from Full Sail University (November 93 RASAD) and have over 7,500 shows or sessions under my belt. I have worked for very famous people and I have worked with complete unknowns that are incredible! I am currently an Engineer for a successful full time touring band working the East Coast (from Maryland to Key West and the Caribbean) and do about 275 days a year on the road (with my wife on the crew with me!!!) mixing a GREAT band consisting of 5 world class musicians. I chose them because frankly at my age (50! I started when I was very young lol) I really want to do what I do for people I enjoy working with on a show I enjoy hearing every night. Fortunately, I have toured the world and been in some acoustically great rooms but there are very few "perfect" rooms out there. Here are a few observations I have made over the years:

1. I NEVER brag about what I have done or who I have worked with because IT DOESN'T MATTER!! All that matters is MY mix RIGHT NOW on the system I am using in the venue I am currently mixing in!! 90% of the time the guy that brags usually has too much low-end and too much high-end and no meat in the middle and almost 100% of the time they come across to me like a COMPLETE FOOL. Instead of telling me what gear you have worked on or who you worked with, spend THAT time ACTUALLY TUNING YOUR PA IN THE ROOM ITS IN!!

2. Yes TUNING the ROOM...check 123 doesn't cut it! Talking into a mic at the console is NOT tuning the PA!! I START with subs not the vocal range or keys or anything else. WITH NOBODY PLAYING THROUGH THE PA I use Sade's The Sweetest Taboo, Seal's Kiss from a Rose, and Seal's Fly Like an Eagle in that order.

The Sade has a lot of movement and a lot of airiness and really clean bass and drums that sit in and NEED a lot of space. Easy to get the fundamentals of the low end done in the intro. I usually play this track at least twice and work from the low end up on a parametric EQ and move to the graph when necessary to get the big picture. Once the low end is clean, tight, and punchy, I move to the upper box or boxes and go from there.

Once I am satisfied with my tuning I play Kiss from a Rose and listen to the vocals in the beginning and make sure they are big and clear. When the low end comes in I make sure it is not floppy or boomy (usually I am good to go) and everything sounds even. Listen 1 time through while walking the space and noting any problem areas.

Then I put on Fly like an Eagle (which has a bass enhancer on it) and listen to the low end and make sure it's not muddy or harsh and make sure that I am hearing the crack of the snare, the thud of the kick, a VERY CLEAN bass line and the air in Seals vocals. If ALL of those things are there I put on some Bob Marley (usually) and go chill until the band shows.

I use an aux fed sub send (or sends) so I can CONTROL the low end and what goes to it. Using a PARAMETRIC EQ FIRST listen where the nodes are. Find them by sending the tracks through the sub aux and cutting or boosting the EQ as you sweep through the frequencies below 200 Hz. But 200 is not in the sub you say? It is in some of them and you may or may not know for sure. It is also the first octave above 100 Hz and the second for 50 Hz and the third for 25 Hz! It is not always the fundamental that is giving you a problem. It could be (and a lot of times it is!!) the first or second or higher harmonic. Unfortunately this is not typically taught anymore and the guy usually just has a card (or maybe not even...) that lists his title as Engineer. Just because they call themselves one doesn't mean they are...Sweep until you find the problem. You usually have a 4 band parametric EQ on your Sends these days and is usually selectable as fully parametric on all bands!! That's 4 filters just to fix the problem!! Sweep, cut, next one... It usually takes me less than 15 minutes in even the toughest of rooms. This is THE ONLY WAY I do it. You can use scopes and noise but a scope doesn't make ANY noise and noise is just that, noise! Take your time and you will get a tighter, more musical low end I promise. IF the parametric is not enough, use the graphic EQ the same way boost and listen then cut where you need to.

3. You will FEEL some of the problems but you will ALWAYS hear the problem areas if you know how to listen for them. Boomy, boxy, muddy, pick an adjective but they are ALL happening somewhere BELOW 200 Hz. A wide Q at 200 to 250 Hz with 9 db of cut on ALL the vocal mics will NOT fix the problem but it WILL make ALL your vocals tinny and small and will make your PA sound even worse than it already does. Besides if you do this you are removing ALL of the body from the vocals. This is lazy sound guy or stupid sound guy or clueless sound guy syndrome.

4. Make sure you are listening to the space as a whole NOT the speakers. If you are listening to the speakers you are missing the boat. The speakers are the point of origin but the developed sound will excite the space completely differently every time. You HAVE to carve out the trash and fill in the holes!! This is what a great engineer does!! The next time you see a live show don't listen to the speakers, listen to the space! What is the SPACE doing? Every sound person I hip to this has an epiphany for some reason. Why? It is the Space that is being excited not the speaker...tune the space you are in!

5. Once you get the low end sorted, then and only then, move on to the rest of the rig using the same approach. I use the parametric or graph where necessary or I may use a matrix to feed sends to multiple places for multiple zones. You HAVE TO TUNE EACH ZONE as well using the same technique. I boost every band on the graph and listen to what effect it has on the SPACE. Then cut where necessary. If the sound person doesn't know how to listen they are probably in the wrong field. Unfortunately, most of them are!! No matter how passionately they want to mix, some of them lack the aforementioned listening and tuning skills to be an effective engineer. I feel for people who want a career in this field but I loathe running into the idiots that call themselves engineers. Gives legit people a bad rap in my opinion.

It all sounds easy and it is far easier once you actually learn to do it this way. It has been my experience that at a regional, national, and even international level, there is a VERY small percentage of SKILLED operators that run systems this way. The result is usually small, tinny, boomy and BRIGHT sounding mixes. Over the years I have had to work on every piece of crap gear that has ever been made and in the process have had to learn how to tune the space and using the worst possible hodge podge of components, become a master at making chicken salad from chicken poopie. EXPERIENCE is key and I have know guys in their teens that are truly gifted as well as guys in their 40 or 50's with 25 years or more of experience who are clueless morons!! NEVER trust anything they tell you, let the work speak for itself. MOST of them are full of sh$t when it comes to their experience. I love running into guys who claim to have worked for companies I have actually worked for during the time period I was there...it NEVER ends well!

Now that I have your attention let me address the original post. I would guess there are a combination of factors at work here and some have been mentioned so I give credit to those posters who have already brought them up!

1. If this venue is designed as an acoustical performance space MEANT to be used WITHOUT sound reinforcement your back is already against the wall. You HAVE to bring in the LEAST amount of gear to do the job that you possibly can and you HAVE to have the cooperation of the performers or it WILL be a bloody mess. Personally, I don't like working in these spaces and most of the upper tier guys I know don't either!! HOWEVER, the business being what it is we all HAVE to at some point and despite the best efforts of a TEAM of really good engineers, usually the results are not as good as we would like. I am not taking up for the engineer in the OP at all, nor am I making excuses for them, but I can tell you that they were probably having just as bad a time as you were. Some spaces can be tamed but not completely overcome and the spaces designed for no reinforcement are the toughest type room you can do as far as I am concerned.

2. Most would say the engineer was having a bad day when in reality it was probably the promoter that was having a bad day. I run into this all the time. Well intentioned promoter, event planner, hall manager, whatever it may be, just didn't realize or even know to ask that the venue was probably not the best choice to have the show. The reality is that most of them are clueless on the acoustical and technical nature of the business and are just trying to put on the show. I am shocked and saddened that so many are so clueless about the requirements necessary to assure a good show for EVERYONE. They are more concerned about selling tickets and concessions (and merch, vendors, etc) than anything else so they should share in some of the blame here. With that said, these are the people that put on the shows so the more you can do to help them be successful, the more likely they will be amenable to a price increase at the next show...

3. It is likely a combination of too much gear, too much stage volume, and not enough attention paid to the tuning of the space that is the culprit in your bad experience and to be fair, it is usually this same combination that hampers great sound in most any space. There are many other factors but these usually can kill even the best production crew and thus, crush the experience for everyone else. To me, it is usually inexcusable and CAN be attributed to lack of knowledge, lack of experience, or just plain lack of give a damn (or all of the above) that results in this kind of experience. It can also just be a case of really bad room design (or lack thereof) or poor production planning that ends up killing the experience

At the end of the day, there are many challenges that crews and engineers face at EVERY single show they do but it is up to US to find a way to overcome them and present the artists in the best way we can with the gear in the spaces we are dealt. Sometimes it is easy, magical even. More often than not it is a nightmare trying to fit the square peg in the round hole. We HAVE to be able to make it work no matter what. That means sometimes working off no sleep for a few days or no REAL food or drink with gear that is less than desirable in a space that NO BAND SHOULD EVER HAVE TO ATTEMPT TO PLAY IN. But THAT IS WHAT WE DO...at least some of us anyway!!

Too many times I run into sound companies that have a principal (i.e. The person that owns all the gear) that is a novice, hack, or self proclaimed expert (on EVERYTHING) that should hire a REAL operator but just enjoys running the system and so you get what you get. Most of the time they offer me a job after saying "I have never heard the system sound like this!" In reality all I do is proper tuning and then present a good mix of a great band. My band is happy, the buyer is happy and the audience is happy! The system owner is now enlightened and excited about their rig and will THEN invest the time it takes to learn how to make it sound like I did. I have really good ears and technical skills but anyone can learn and use those skills. The problem is most of them don't even know they need to...

Next time you go to a show walk over and stand at least 6 feet BEHIND (don't make me tell you to move so I can see the show I am trying to mix...) the sound person (I refuse to call them engineer unless I hear the work) and close your eyes and listen from THEIR perspective. I promise you it sounds different where they are! Good or bad, that operator is hunched over doing their best (which may in fact, SUCK or be GREAT!!) so give them a break for the first few songs. I NEVER get a sound check, ever! I need 1 to 3 songs to get my sh$t together and hear what the space is doing with the band playing for my mix to be where it needs to be. THERE WILL BE SOME FINE TUNING REQUIRED!! Telling me during the first minute of the first song to turn up the guitar player or turn down the sub or turn up the singer or whatever may actually get you a mini mag light in the rib cage if you get too close doing it...I give the same courtesy to any engineer mixing any show I see. If they don't have it together within 3 songs I may or may not go over and offer some help. That either winds up with me having a new best friend or someone saying "who the fuxk are you?" If I get the latter I usually respond "An educated paying customer" and walk away.

One more thing, if it sounds good or even great, please tell them it does!! We get very few props most of the time from the LISTENERS and it feels better than tips most of the time to know that people are digging what we are doing!! I personally want every single listener to forget their troubles in life and just have a good time for a few hours and enjoy the experience. THAT is the reward for me and should be the reward for anyone that steps behind a console. MOST OF THE TIME it is a tough, thankless job that we do and not the easiest way to make a living, but to those who do it for the love of the work, there is nothing that even comes close to mixing a great band through a great rig in a great room with a great crowd involved and loving the show!! Fortunately for me I will get another shot at it when we go back out on the road this Thursday...see you guys out there!!

Peace,

T

PS - Sorry for the long post but as you can tell it gets on my nerves to. I am hoping that some of you guys are sound people (or engineers) that have never been taught the RIGHT way to tune a PA and will actually get something useful from this diatribe...at worst I am hoping that some of you guys may have a different opinion about "sound guys" in general after the read. Sound guys and gals are not ALL bad and those that are could get better if they knew how...here is the first step in that direction. I promise if you try it this way you will hear the difference and so will your listeners!! Good luck, God Bless, and Happy Trails out there on the road...
 
^^^

I had any number of things to say, but tommixx said some of them better and with more professional standing than I will be able to bring to the table if I live to be 472 years old. The rest of what he said... I needed to hear it as well.

Thank you, sir.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tommixx
^^^

I had any number of things to say, but tommixx said some of them better and with more professional standing than I will be able to bring to the table if I live to be 472 years old. The rest of what he said... I needed to hear it as well.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you sir you are far too kind! I am tickled to know it resonated in some way for you. I hope that every reader takes something from it...

Peace,

T
 
Thank you sir you are far too kind! I am tickled to know it resonated in some way for you. I hope that every reader takes something from it...


Your point about listening to the space is one I learned very early on, but got a very stark reminder of a few years ago. I was working same-gear-same-venue as always, but with an entirely new group. Although they had played in the room before, I hadn't heard them there or anywhere else, and in fact had no idea that this trio of substitutes would be the band for the weekend. Well, life is full of surprises, and when I text the (absent) guy in charge he says 'Oh yeah, I suppose I should have told you about this.' Yes, I suppose you should have.

So I look at these folks loading in, and I'm not seeing any instrument cases that in any way resemble electric guitars, keys, bass, or kit. They instead bring violin, steel guitar, various other curious stringed things, some sort of organ-in-a-box contraption, and strange small percussion instruments. And electronicals to help them loop whatever they want.

This is an interesting twist, and since I am clearly going to make a mess of whatever's coming from stage if I start guessing, I ask what they want and do exactly that. I end up dragging out mics that I didn't know existed, and hope I get the right end up or down or in or out or however it's supposed to go. I don't have a Monitors guy (another surprise!) so sound check sees me not paying much attention to the FOH side. I've got the mains way back so I can safely ignore that whole deal. (!) They're not jerks to work with and I'm pretty quick with in-ear mixes, so that drops the stress level a bit.

I walk over to where I'm supposed to be, bring up the mains enough that I can hear what I am doing, and I know we are in a world of trouble from the first note. My head snaps up and I stare at stage to make sure they haven't traded in the stringed things for a trumpet and a sax, because they are playing in Bb. God only knows why. The violin player layers loops like phyllo dough, and our troubles deepen. I have enormous chunks taken out at the troublesome frequencies, and it sounds hideous, and I still can't tell what's feedback and what's just the violin, and I have four church services of this to look forward to.

They finish the first song and I ask who needs what. Everybody is thrilled with what's in their ears and they have no clue of the caliber of disaster in the house. I say 'Just a minute, guys,' and walk slowly to stage. When I arrive, I say this:

'Is your whole set in Bb?' Nods all around. 'I know you have played here before, and you are free to think I'm an idiot if you like, and I know I'm asking you to do something that I have no business asking you to do, but could you do something else, anything else? The resonant frequency of this room is Bb below middle C, and I've never heard a room with a nastier resonance when it gets going. You are all over it and you won't like anything I will do to even come close to solving it.'

Horrified looks. 'The other times we've played here we've done the set in D but were told it's too high for congregational singing. We figured down a third would be about right.' They confer. 'We'll try something else if that's ok. What do you want?' 'Anything but Bb. Anything. Well, obviously Eb wouldn't be great. And if you want to go back to D, that's fine too. I'll take the heat if you get told it's too high.'

They decide on B. They miss a note here and there during rehearsal, but at least I can breathe again - and put 230Hz back.

Moral of too-long story? Don't make the room do what the room cannot do. There are some things you just can't fight. Well, you can fight. But you won't win.
 
^^^

I had any number of things to say, but tommixx said some of them better and with more professional standing than I will be able to bring to the table if I live to be 472 years old. The rest of what he said... I needed to hear it as well.

Thank you, sir.

Hear, hear.

But - the bit I don't get is why acoustic concert hall spaces would be the hardest. Naively, I would have thought quite the opposite. If the instrumentation is pushing out enough actual acoustic sound, then cool - turn the PA off and let everyone enjoy the beautiful room. Job done, what could be easier. If dealing with electric instruments, then amplify them so they mimic acoustic instruments - low volume point sources on the stage. Turn that up to the minimum level needed. Not really sure what flown line arrays and subs bring to the party when the room is already working well. Outdoors, beer barns, crappy stadiums, tent gigs - sure, you need help. But in a concert hall? Just - why?

What am I missing here? I get that some people get off on being crushed by SPL, but do those dudes care about the mix anyway?
 

Latest posts