A proud day for Australia... (another race thread)

[Phil Smith]

I hope we all can agree that black people are not literally black. So why is it that someone doing a Jackson 5 skit or representing his favorite rugby player would automatically reach for the black paint? Also, are we sure that it's mostly black Americans who are offended by blackface? How do we know that dark-skinned Aussies, or dark-skinned Central/South American people, aren't equally offended?

This is the question I was asking, why not brown paint which would be more accurate?

The guys in the photo look like the some of the same old racist caricatures of the past, one does need to ask the question: "Why is that?"

 

[fingerbun]

This is the question I was asking, why not brown paint which would be more accurate?

The guys in the photo look like the some of the same old racist caricatures of the past, one does need to ask the question: "Why is that?"

Is your question a genuine question, or rhetorical?

Do you think this clearly shows that the guys who did this are racist and proud of it? Or do you think it shows that they were unaware of the cultural context of those caricatures in the US, or judged them irrelevant in the Australian context? Or do you have another explanation?

Do you think the rugby player they were referencing should have been offended?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. I think I see in my head why black is offensive to you and brown is not, but it still feels kind of weird to me, so maybe I don't totally get it.

 

[Phil Smith]

Is your question a genuine question, or rhetorical?

A little of both actually.

Do you think this clearly shows that the guys who did this are racist and proud of it? Or do you think it shows that they were unaware of the cultural context of those caricatures in the US, or judged them irrelevant in the Australian context? Or do you have another explanation?

Do you think the rugby player they were referencing should have been offended?

Sorry if these are dumb questions. I think I see in my head why black is offensive to you and brown is not, but it still feels kind of weird to me, so maybe I don't totally get it.

Australia isn't isolated from the rest of the world and so one has to think about public messages and their effect and meaning to the world at large.

For example, your country may be okay with full frontal nudity, meaning people of all ages can view images and programs containing such but you know that there are countries that would view this as being indecent. Your country isn't being indecent but it would be viewed that way by many other countries/cultures.

 

[fingerbun]

Australia isn't isolated from the rest of the world and so one has to think about public messages and their effect and meaning to the world at large.

True. Neither is America. That's what makes this a hard issue.

Would you consider insisting that American women wear head-to-toe clothing and cover their faces, because this is the decent thing to do in some middle eastern countries, for example?

If not, why not?

 

[Phil Smith]

True. Neither is America. That's what makes this a hard issue.

Would you consider insisting that American women wear head-to-toe clothing and cover their faces, because this is the decent thing to do in some middle eastern countries, for example?

If not, why not?

Not all women in the middle east cover up their faces, have you seen wedding outfits with the veil and all, surprisingly similar isn't it?

Why don't you comment on the scenario that I posted about nudity? Did you understand the point I was trying to make?

 

[fingerbun]

Not all women in the middle east cover up their faces, have you seen wedding outfits with the veil and all, surprisingly similar isn't it?

Why don't you comment on the scenario that I posted about nudity? Did you understand the point I was trying to make?

I think the point you were trying to make is that just because it is acceptable to show full frontal nudity in one place, doesn't mean you shouldn't refrain from showing it to avoid offence in other places where it is not acceptable. Did I understand you correctly?

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I saw this story last week. I just think this is an example of what can happen in a place where there are very few people of color. What the Aussies did was offensive, but I would not lose sleep over it.

 

[aborgman]

I know exactly what I said and I stand behind what I said.

white people who choose to perform in black face know exactly what they are doing.

So does a white Australian, with no cultural knowledge of blackface, "know exactly what they are doing"?

Or don't you stand behind what you said?

 

[onosson]

does a white Australian, with no cultural knowledge of blackface, "know exactly what they are doing"?

Not to speak for someone else , but I think that if someone doesn't know what "performing in blackface" is, then they can't by definition "perform in blackface", even if they might be doing something that resembles it.

Some people might take that as playing with semantics, but actually I think it gets to the heart of this discussion.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

So does a white Australian, with no cultural knowledge of blackface, "know exactly what they are doing"?

Or don't you stand behind what you said?

I stand behind what I said. And I am aware of the instances where there are culture differences but again to perform in blackface is a act purposely done to incite or disrupt.


When one chooses to perform in blackface they know exactly what the general reaction will be.

 

[aborgman]

I stand behind what I said. And I am aware of the instances where there are culture differences but again to perform in blackface is a act purposely done to incite or disrupt.


When one chooses to perform in blackface they know exactly what the general reaction will be.

So your assertion is that those Australians who won the contest knew "exactly what the general reaction" would be? And they did it anyway?

I though you weren't claiming anyone was racist?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

So your assertion is that those Australians who won the contest knew "exactly what the general reaction" would be? And they did it anyway?

I though you weren't claiming anyone was racist?

Stop the bs. I never ever said or insinuated that they were racist.


Playing in blackface does not necessarily make one a racist.

But at the end of the day performing in blackface will bring some heat.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

So your assertion is that those Australians who won the contest knew "exactly what the general reaction" would be? And they did it anyway?

I though you weren't claiming anyone was racist?

Australia is an English speaking country that was part of the British Empire, and now the Commonwealth. Australia is also a neighbor of New Guinea, a country of black people who were often brought to work on Australian farms under horrible conditions. Australia also has a dark skinned indigenous population, so I'm sure the local culture understands the derogatory nature of blackface.

 

[Tituscrow]

I think some of the frostiness here was (unintentionally) inspired by the thread title itself.

I'm just reading about a gun incident in Nevada today. Now suppose, as a non-American, I titled a thread 'a proud day to be american' to address this event. I'd wager 99% of Americans would fry me in an instant in an outpouring of defensive national pride. I see something similar happening here.

 

[Phil Smith]

I think some of the frostiness here was (unintentionally) inspired by the thread title itself.

I'm just reading about a gun incident in Nevada today. Now suppose, as a non-American, I titled a thread 'a proud day to be american' to address this event. I'd wager 99% of Americans would fry me in an instant in an outpouring of defensive national pride. I see something similar happening here.

It's all about the photo.

 

[aborgman]

Australia is an English speaking country that was part of the British Empire, and now the Commonwealth. Australia is also a neighbor of New Guinea, a country of black people who were often brought to work on Australian farms under horrible conditions. Australia also has a dark skinned indigenous population, so I'm sure the local culture understands the derogatory nature of blackface.

You're sure... even after a couple different Australians said the local culture DOESN'T understand the derogatory nature of blackface?

 

[Phil Smith]

You're sure... even after a couple different Australians said the local culture DOESN'T understand the derogatory nature of blackface?

There's also a number of Americans that don't understand it either.

 

[fingerbun]

I have to accept that my attempts to explain things are getting nowhere. I can see what appear to be huge gaps in the thinking of some Americans here that you appear not to see. Likewise I assume you can see gaps in my thinking that I can't.

If I have caused anyone offence or discomfort with my contributions to this thread, I sincerely apologise. That was never what I intended.

 

[Horny Toad]

I have to accept that my attempts to explain things are getting nowhere. I can see what appear to be huge gaps in the thinking of some Americans here that you appear not to see. Likewise I assume you can see gaps in my thinking that I can't.

If I have caused anyone offence or discomfort with my contributions to this thread, I sincerely apologise. That was never what I intended.

Fingerburn, I don't feel you need to apologize for anything. I think you've done a good job of explaining yourself and what you've said makes sense.

 

[theNoseBleedKid]

Australia is an English speaking country that was part of the British Empire, and now the Commonwealth. Australia is also a neighbor of New Guinea, a country of black people who were often brought to work on Australian farms under horrible conditions. Australia also has a dark skinned indigenous population, so I'm sure the local culture understands the derogatory nature of blackface.

There is no homogenous local culture, and I don't think it's fair or accurate to equate Melanisians and Polynesians with African-Americans/British, or all 'dark skinned' people - that's a canvassing I wouldn't have expected from you, implicitly or otherwise.

I mean it's great we've dealt almost exclusively in stereotypes, but aren't those, I don't know, a foundation of racism?

To be honest, I think a lot of the derogatory nature of blackface is less about the paint, and more about how those performances were used to degrade. I can't see it being reasonable that, in of itself, a superficial skin paint is insulting.

Again, those guys at the rugby didn't go to insult someone - they went to imitate someone they admired. Someone who is in no way connected to the history of blackface.

The MJ imitation was a much better example of Australians 'not getting it' - since it was a skit that provoked comedy and is much closer to original blackface performances, IMO.

It's surprising to me that considering the genuine, current, significant racial and racist issues surrounding Australian society, government and politics, we're focusing on a visible, but near-irrelevant issue (2 dudes dressing up, unaware of the problems their costume could cause).

So does a white Australian, with no cultural knowledge of blackface, "know exactly what they are doing"?

Or don't you stand behind what you said?

Don't even bother, cognitive dissonance at work.