JAUQO III-X said:
I totally agree, but I'd just like to point out that an earlier poster in this thread mentioned that the guys Harry Connick Jr was pissed at were Indian, not white. Doesn't make it better, but it is worth keeping in mind I think.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
A proud day for Australia... (another race thread)
- Thread starter Marlat
- Start date
I totally agree, but I'd just like to point out that an earlier poster in this thread mentioned that the guys Harry Connick Jr was pissed at were Indian, not white. Doesn't make it better, but it is worth keeping in mind I think.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Something tells me you didn't read this thread through, Simo. Which is understandable; it's a long and awkward thread
I was posing that question to basstotheface, who is not an Aussie. He responded with "Yeah, I've seen 'It's Always Sunny,'" which was kinda.....well, he's a kid
The rugby player's skin isn't black; it's brown, which is a small slice of the matter. Besides that...good morning everyone!
Didn't have time, I read it when I got back from work and saw that it was a little bit of a moot point, but eh.
I know the question was directed at basstotheface, but I figured it was a good time to point out that we don't know, or at least most of us.
Personally I still think its pretty absurd that anyone would see a photo of a couple of guys dressed up, and make the assumption that they are making some sort of deeply offensive statement directed at their race. I just simply cannot fathom. I'll admit I have no basis for comparison, or anyway to relate to the position of someone who was offended by the picture, but I just don't get it.
Though I am probably better off keeping my opinions to myself, I might offend someone otherwise
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
I know the history etc. behind blackface, it's relating to someone who could be offended by it that I am having trouble with.
Summary of what I gathered from the article:
Once upon a time, people painted their face black to sterotype African-Americans in a way that was offensive and derogatory. This practice has long since been outdated, and nobody in this day and age would even think to use blackface in the same derogatory manner, yet for some reason whenever someone dons black face-paint in order to portray a dark skinned character/public figure/whatever there is a huge uproar and everyone gets upset over something that really means nothing, and hasn't done for at least half a century.
I mean, the Jackson Five thing a while back I could sort of understand. I mean, they were in a skit, it was obviously supposed to be comical, maybe people got the wrong impression.
This one? Seriously? Its a still photograph, of a couple of people dressed up as a rugby player. Even with no context whatsoever, how is it even remotely similar to the minstrel shows described in that article?
I just don't see how someone wearing black facepaint is offensive. I just can't see any issue here, it could be cultural differences, or just me, but it really boggles my mind.
It's the Aussie again.
First I understand, to some extent at least, why blackface is offensive to Americans.
Second, I acknowledge that racism is wrong and that Australia has its struggles with racism. All of this has been discussed in this thread. You can find my detailed posts if you want to understand my perspective.
But I am a bit hurt that my country is being bashed like this. I understand that an aspect of our cultural expression has had a different, and offensive meaning in the USA. But you are picking on a skit that was only ever intended for broadcast in Australia, and a photo that has a totally different cultural context in our country, and reading into them meaning that does not exist here.
The USA is a great country, and worthy of tremendous respect for your many achievements. I genuinely admire your many contributions to humanity.
Yet there are sections of American culture that are offensive to other parts of the world. In some cases deeply offensive.
I choose not to comment on them. I recognize them as cultural difference, I recognize the greatness of your nation, and I value the friendship between our countries.
I don't mind you pointing out that the Jackson skit is offensive to you and asking us to be more aware, but it hurts me a little, when you act as if those skits should be obviously distasteful everywhere, just because they are in your country. Read the article linked to by Jauqo III. It's mostly American history.
By all means, voice your hurt to us, and we should try harder to respect your feelings. But please also respect ours a little. I love my country, and I find some of the comments here harsh.
First I understand, to some extent at least, why blackface is offensive to Americans.
Second, I acknowledge that racism is wrong and that Australia has its struggles with racism. All of this has been discussed in this thread. You can find my detailed posts if you want to understand my perspective.
But I am a bit hurt that my country is being bashed like this. I understand that an aspect of our cultural expression has had a different, and offensive meaning in the USA. But you are picking on a skit that was only ever intended for broadcast in Australia, and a photo that has a totally different cultural context in our country, and reading into them meaning that does not exist here.
The USA is a great country, and worthy of tremendous respect for your many achievements. I genuinely admire your many contributions to humanity.
Yet there are sections of American culture that are offensive to other parts of the world. In some cases deeply offensive.
I choose not to comment on them. I recognize them as cultural difference, I recognize the greatness of your nation, and I value the friendship between our countries.
I don't mind you pointing out that the Jackson skit is offensive to you and asking us to be more aware, but it hurts me a little, when you act as if those skits should be obviously distasteful everywhere, just because they are in your country. Read the article linked to by Jauqo III. It's mostly American history.
By all means, voice your hurt to us, and we should try harder to respect your feelings. But please also respect ours a little. I love my country, and I find some of the comments here harsh.
It's an American thing, and there's no reason to expect an Aussie to have any concept of it.
If I were to put on black face and take a trip to the grocery store or take a walk around the block, it would be a fair assessment that I could expect to get my ass beat.
So bear that in mind all you non-Americans: Going out in public wearing black face in my country could very well have negative repercussions.
If I were to put on black face and take a trip to the grocery store or take a walk around the block, it would be a fair assessment that I could expect to get my ass beat.
So bear that in mind all you non-Americans: Going out in public wearing black face in my country could very well have negative repercussions.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
I have not said anything against you or any if the other Australians in this thread. And I have no issues with Australia. But I do get that you don't seem to want to understand why blackface can be offensive.
For those who don't seem to get it. if and when you make it to the US just don't do it, if you really want to show how much you may like the US.
You may go home with a well whooped you know what along with two black eyes.
And I'm sure you don't want the Kangaroos laughing at you. But I'm sure the aborigines will be laughing their black hearts out over the little misunderstanding
Personally I still think its pretty absurd that anyone would see a photo of a couple of guys dressed up, and make the assumption that they are making some sort of deeply offensive statement directed at their race. I just simply cannot fathom. I'll admit I have no basis for comparison, or anyway to relate to the position of someone who was offended by the picture, but I just don't get it.
Though I am probably better off keeping my opinions to myself, I might offend someone otherwise
I'm with you there; given what we know about Australia and these guys, that would be quite the reach to make.
And I can't see any reason why someone would have a problem with the fact that this makes no sense to you
Fingerbun, thanks again for your input and perspective. I hope that in my anger I did not participate in any Australia bashing; if I did, it was unintentional. I was suprised, though, to learn that the marketing team at the airline did not know that the cultural phenomena of blackface struck such a deep chord in the US (and UK, apparently).
There are many, many things about the country I live in that I find distasteful, as well. So whatever you dislike about the US, I am probably right there with you
We have some concept of it, though this thread has shown me that I don't totally get it.
My struggle is that the cultural context is so different here. Should Australians act in accordance with our culture, where this is not racist, or should we refrain from it out of respect for the pain it causes our US friends?
I do want to and I partly get it. What I don't see is any context as to why it is offensive to Australians in an Australian culture.b
I also see in this thread that different Americans have different ideas of where to draw the boundary.
MT, no. I have no issue with healthy discussion or being told I am wrong.
Forgive me my moment of national pride, leaping to the defence of my country when it is criticised.
And yes I am scratching my head as to what bright spark at QANTAS went down this route, knowing the circulation the photo could get.
FB: while a punter at a game might not understand the racial and international context of black face, I find it highly suspect a large, international, corporation wouldn't be aware that this photo could be potentially racially charged.
Context of a rugby match is not the same as the winner of an international costume/photo competition, IMO.
However, Jaquo's absurd assumption that everyone the world over is familiar with black face history is beyond a joke.
Context of a rugby match is not the same as the winner of an international costume/photo competition, IMO.
However, Jaquo's absurd assumption that everyone the world over is familiar with black face history is beyond a joke.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Can you please point out where I made such a ignorant assumption? If not learn to accurately accuse one of such ignorance.
The problem with your above statement is beyond ignorant. For I am very aware that everyone is not familiar with the history of the offensiveness of blackface. And I'm very aware that different cultures are just that. Different cultures.
I never accused Australia of being ignorant or racist did I?
I can respect a culture or people who are not aware of what is offensive for another. And I can also respect that same culture or people that is willing to take a look at why it may be offensive.
Not having a go at you, but I will admit I felt a little accused, perhaps wrongly. I spent a lot of time to draft what I hoped were reasoned posts enabling discussion, partly to add information and partly so people could correct me. I took correction on following comments and conceded some points. And your response to that seemed to be.
It's an emotive issue. I don't begrudge your strong feelings about it, I don't take offence at your responses, but I am unsure what I needed to do to show you that I am trying to understand your perspective
So I see where NBK is coming from.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
I get that you were trying to understand. I never said that you or any one else from Australia were racist. Never and I never insinuated.
I think it really is a misunderstanding where a couple of guys want to take what I actually said and turn it into something else.
I'm an Aussie to and I'll chime in here to defend Jauqo ashe never said Aussies were racist or anyone on in this thread gave a rats about someones skin tone. What he said was these guys should've known what they were doing was insensitive to a group of people in a country on the other side of the planet.
But hey, bikinis probably offend muslim, eating cows probably offends hindus, US cultural imperialism offends most Aussies and coating your face in vegemite offends most people in the US.
Harry Connick found the Michael Jackson thing offensive, most Aussie just thought it was lame. Jauqo didn't dig the fancy-dress at the ruggers. The good thing about being an Aussie (or a Seppo, pretty much) is that we can be offended by whatever we like, and we are all free to offend whoever we like.
But hey, bikinis probably offend muslim, eating cows probably offends hindus, US cultural imperialism offends most Aussies and coating your face in vegemite offends most people in the US.
Harry Connick found the Michael Jackson thing offensive, most Aussie just thought it was lame. Jauqo didn't dig the fancy-dress at the ruggers. The good thing about being an Aussie (or a Seppo, pretty much) is that we can be offended by whatever we like, and we are all free to offend whoever we like.
Here:
I realise you've probably talked to all 'white people' and understand each of their motivations and knowledge, the world over, so forgive me if it sounded like an unfounded assumption.
(sarcasm)
Well, the above quote sure doesn't sound like you're canvassing all white people into a homogenous group and making a generalised statement about them. That might be considered racist
.No, you didn't. You accused any white person who dresses up in black face of being offensive (then later admitted not everyone knows or understands the perspective of people who would be offensive), which is quite different.
It's not as if calling Australians racist is the only way to be wrong
.
I hope we all can agree that black people are not literally black. So why is it that someone doing a Jackson 5 skit or representing his favorite rugby player would automatically reach for the black paint? Also, are we sure that it's mostly black Americans who are offended by blackface? How do we know that dark-skinned Aussies, or dark-skinned Central/South American people, aren't equally offended?
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Here:
I realise you've probably talked to all 'white people' and understand each of their motivations and knowledge, the world over, so forgive me if it sounded like an unfounded assumption.
(sarcasm)
Well, the above quote sure doesn't sound like you're canvassing all white people into a homogenous group and making a generalised statement about them. That might be considered racist
No, you didn't. You accused any white person who dresses up in black face of being offensive (then later admitted not everyone knows or understands the perspective of people who would be offensive), which is quite different.
It's not as if calling Australians racist is the only way to be wrong
You can attempt to turn my words into what ever you choose.
And I'm sure we all know that all Australians are not white.
You're wasting your energy. I know exactly what I said and I stand behind what I said.
Ignorance is really interesting to say the least.
There's a lot of room here for people to get upset. I see it happening and I don't want that.
I have to judge the social norms in my country, and act accordingly. I have laid out my beliefs in previous posts and I don't know that I have a lot to add.
Am I racist because I don't immediately and unequivocally denounce all blackface? No, but no doubt some people will not believe that.
Am I insensitive? Maybe, but equally maybe the people criticising that Australian culture are insensitive to the differences between the Australian and US history, and are expecting Australians to respond like Americans would. Maybe I am not sensitive enough in my responses, or maybe some of those arguing the opposite perspective are over-sensitive.
I need to digest what I have learned from this thread and think about it a bit.
