Clarence Zener, if I'm not mistaken. Funny thing; when I was in grad school I used to work all my dynamic mechanical problems with their electric circuit equivalents, because I was just more comfortable with them.
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Acme Full Range Series III 112
- Thread starter KJung
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alexclaber
Commercial User
I tend to visualise speaker systems as dynamic mechanical systems, resonating masses on springs and all that, but accurate modelling seems more intuitive with electrical equivalent models and complex numbers than with all the calculus required for moving masses. Curious...
In recent times I've become further obsessed with the large signal behaviour which is where things get very interesting - ports can go turbulent, compliance, inductance and resonance all change, voice coils heat up, and Q and sensitivity changes, etc - and you see that when a bassist's great tone has gone awry as a gig progresses it's not always due to human ear overload!
In recent times I've become further obsessed with the large signal behaviour which is where things get very interesting - ports can go turbulent, compliance, inductance and resonance all change, voice coils heat up, and Q and sensitivity changes, etc - and you see that when a bassist's great tone has gone awry as a gig progresses it's not always due to human ear overload!
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Andy Lewis's practice of tuning lower than normal is a very valid juggling of the tradeoffs in my opinion. I do the same thing in the home audio world, generally tuning lower than my competition, because there is a qualititive benefit from doing so if the rest of the system is optimized accordingly.
Now in the bass cab world, the tuning frequency plays a role in the excursion-limited power handling. By way of example, we simply cannot tune a bass cab to maximize protection against over-excursion on the fundamental of low-B AND on the first overtone of low-B at the same time. So we juggle the tradeoffs.
And one of those tradeoffs is sound quality, so if we have a lot of excursion available, it might well make sense to push our tradeoffs in the direction of best low-end sound quality, which can mean a lower than normal tuning frequency IF the rest of the system is optimized for it. That's my perception of what Andy's doing.
So you might be saying to yourself, okay Duke, if what Andy's doing makes so much sense, why aren't you doing it? And the answer is, because Andy's already doing it, and I don't see any point in replicating another designer's work, especially one who didn't leave me any room for improvement. To put it another way, I really don't want to fight in Andy's division - he'd pummel me.
Now in the bass cab world, the tuning frequency plays a role in the excursion-limited power handling. By way of example, we simply cannot tune a bass cab to maximize protection against over-excursion on the fundamental of low-B AND on the first overtone of low-B at the same time. So we juggle the tradeoffs.
And one of those tradeoffs is sound quality, so if we have a lot of excursion available, it might well make sense to push our tradeoffs in the direction of best low-end sound quality, which can mean a lower than normal tuning frequency IF the rest of the system is optimized for it. That's my perception of what Andy's doing.
So you might be saying to yourself, okay Duke, if what Andy's doing makes so much sense, why aren't you doing it? And the answer is, because Andy's already doing it, and I don't see any point in replicating another designer's work, especially one who didn't leave me any room for improvement. To put it another way, I really don't want to fight in Andy's division - he'd pummel me.
Great thread... thanks for everyone chiming in, especially the guest visit by Andy!
I feel pretty lucky to own the cabs I do... Bergantino, Acme, Audiokinesis.... not bad company to keep as a bassist
I'll look forward to reading more reviews as the Fullrange starts to ship in volume. Great box, and just like Jim B's, and Duke's cabs, it does exactly what it is designed to do.
I feel pretty lucky to own the cabs I do... Bergantino, Acme, Audiokinesis.... not bad company to keep as a bassist
I'll look forward to reading more reviews as the Fullrange starts to ship in volume. Great box, and just like Jim B's, and Duke's cabs, it does exactly what it is designed to do.
And I feel pretty lucky to own the cabs you do...(at least the B112(s) and the ThunderChild)...
MM
alexclaber
Commercial User
Exactly! I know my 10" Acme cabs sounded fantastic in the bottom compared to every other cab on the market at the time and I'm sure the new 12" ones match or better that performance. And, if you're that side of the pond, for the money the performance is incomparable.
I was simply trying to point out that the ability to reproduce low B fundamental at high level with low distortion and low B note at high level with great fat deep tone are two different things and higher tuning doesn't preclude the latter!
Hey guys, FYI, for those considering one of these wonderful 'super 12' type cabs, I will have a review, clip and some pictures of the Baer 12/6 cab up early next week (I'll start a new thread so it will be easy to find and wade through). I should be receiving it on Monday, and will let it open up a bit for a day, and then post some clips, comparing it with the other 112's we've been discussing here, etc.
I'm looking forward to it!
I'm looking forward to it!
Uh oh, here we go again
EDIT: Schroeder 15+L, Thunderchild 112, Acme Low B-112 FR, and ..... I'm running out of room, but at least I'm helping to support my local UPS
Uh oh, here we go again
EDIT: Schroeder 15+L, Thunderchild 112, Acme Low B-112 FR, and ..... I'm running out of room, but at least I'm helping to support my local UPS
The cool thing about these relatively recent 12 designs is that, while they all have superior performance in general, given their size relative to the more typical 'mid driver/tweeter' sort of execution, they all sound way different, and excel in different areas (i.e., extended low end, versus smooth midrange dispersion, versus absolute maximum volume, etc., etc.). Since no one would be able to compare these cabs in a music store (since they are either DIY, or available only direct from dealer, or at best, have very low levels of distributions), I'm on a quest to at least provide a data point on these relatively little known executions!
Since no one would be able to compare these cabs in a music store (since they are either DIY, or available only direct from dealer, or at best, have very low levels of distributions), I'm on a quest to at least provide a data point on these relatively little known executions!
Gun to your head, Ken, if you had to pick one amp and one cab only to play out of for the rest of your life, what would it be?
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,516
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
Since no one would be able to compare these cabs in a music store (since they are either DIY, or available only direct from dealer, or at best, have very low levels of distributions), I'm on a quest to at least provide a data point on these relatively little known executions!
+1 I've been having a fun time comparing the Flatwound, TC112AF, fEARful 12/6cube/1, Baer ML-112, and the Berg HT112ER. Some are more similar than others (on paper, at least), but they really do sound quite different from each other. The Baer cab seems like it's the most aggressive of the bunch in the upper mids (though if I leave the pad on the 18Sound 6" off - which is the setting to use if you add another sub - the 12/6cube/1 sounds fairly similar in the upper mids, but is bigger down low), and I love the weight & dimensions. I haven't broken this one in all the way, yet, but it seems to have great articulation and a hint of growl. The Flatwound is the warmest of the group (it will be interesting to add the Full Range to the mix, shortly), and it seems very even in its response throughout its usable frequency range. Duke's cab has that killer presence in the upper bass to lower mids, and a very smooth transition from upper mids to high end. And it's hella loud for such a tiny cab! The fEARful is big, deep, defined and clear, and is clearly the most "analytical" of the cabs, though it is still very full and rich. The Berg has a very impressive low end that is deep, big, full, but controlled, plus articulate, quick mids and that oh so sweet Bergantino high end (and it's also very smooth in the transition from driver to tweeter). Jim's cabs always manage to sound like "bass cabs," in a good way, too.
Yessir, there are lots of cool things happening in 1x12 land, and it is really cool that each designer is kind of playing in their own pond, versus trying to replicate what someone else is doing. Very cool, indeed...
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,516
- 19,950
- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
Good question! I'll try to throw the Wizzy and the M-line Wizzy into the mix, when I get a chance.
Good question! I'll try to throw the Wizzy and the M-line Wizzy into the mix, when I get a chance.
Oh man this is a review I cannot wait to read ! Thanks Tom !
Alex continues to work on some cool stuff, and we have talked a number of times of trying to get one of his cabs into my hands. It is a bit difficult, given the long distance, but I assume sooner or later he will get one into Tom's hands, and then I might be able to piggy-back onto that.
+1 I've been having a fun time comparing the Flatwound, TC112AF, fEARful 12/6cube/1, Baer ML-112, and the Berg HT112ER. Some are more similar than others (on paper, at least), but they really do sound quite different from each other. The Baer cab seems like it's the most aggressive of the bunch in the upper mids (though if I leave the pad on the 18Sound 6" off - which is the setting to use if you add another sub - the 12/6cube/1 sounds fairly similar in the upper mids, but is bigger down low), and I love the weight & dimensions. I haven't broken this one in all the way, yet, but it seems to have great articulation and a hint of growl. The Flatwound is the warmest of the group (it will be interesting to add the Full Range to the mix, shortly), and it seems very even in its response throughout its usable frequency range. Duke's cab has that killer presence in the upper bass to lower mids, and a very smooth transition from upper mids to high end. And it's hella loud for such a tiny cab! The fEARful is big, deep, defined and clear, and is clearly the most "analytical" of the cabs, though it is still very full and rich. The Berg has a very impressive low end that is deep, big, full, but controlled, plus articulate, quick mids and that oh so sweet Bergantino high end (and it's also very smooth in the transition from driver to tweeter). Jim's cabs always manage to sound like "bass cabs," in a good way, too.
Yessir, there are lots of cool things happening in 1x12 land, and it is really cool that each designer is kind of playing in their own pond, versus trying to replicate what someone else is doing. Very cool, indeed...
+1 to all the above. Fun that we can hopefully provide some info on these great but 'hard to try' small cabs, and a few additional data points, the technical info from your magazine tests, and the clips that I put up. Of course, nothing is as good as the player trying one of these for themselves, but maybe we can help 'narrow the field' a little bit for those who, like me, are always searching for the smallest size with the least amount of tonal compromise.
I'm looking forward the checking out Roger's ML112. From your description, it seems that it will be a somewhat close to my current favorite 12/6 build, the LDS 12/6 with the Faital mid driver (Don is also producing some cool stuff!). I anticipate the low end of the ML112 to be a bit more like the Thunderchild than the fEArful, which for me would be a good thing. We shall see!
That is an easy one... the Berg AE212/Markbass F500. Small enough to fit on a Super600 Kart-a-bag m(i.e., it has the ability to be a relatively easy schlep in almost any situation) , loud enough for literally any gig I would ever do. Small enough for the smallest gig and most difficult load in, big enough to wump the wump, and a wonderful match to the F500, which has the ability to grind it up a bit in the upper mids if I need it. Unfortunately, you can't get the AE212 any more.
To limit your question to 112's, it would most likely be the Thunderchild regarding tone, weight, size, and absolute volume, again with the F500.
That being said, it isn't really a fair question, since there is not one rig that I own that I don't love for what it is, but for the 'one rig that rules them all' for me... AE212/F500.
