Acoustic Vocal Amp Feedback Issue

[Bighouse]

Hi everyone. I've recently started playing with a drummer and a guitar player at the drummer's house. It's been fun, but we need vocals to really help us through our songs. I can't yet sing and play bass simultaneously (something I could do on ukulele at one point in my life, but it's not working for bass) but our guitarist can, so we're fine for the vocalist. However, in order to play live with the (LOUD) drummer in a small room, both the guitarist and I have to amp up quite a bit of volume. Of course, we're all wearing ear plugs to protect our ears. But this means the vocals must also be amplified. The guitarist bought a Fishman/Sennheiser package amp deal from Sweetwater that should help, but when they tried to set it up and use it last weekend, when I wasn't able to attend the practice session, they couldn't crank up the volume very far before hitting a ton of feedback.
I did my research when they told me of the issue and I'm fairly certain that they could have placed the vocal amp in a better location in relationship to the microphone based on the microphone's sensitivity shape. And I think the two of them gave up on trying to make it work. Are there other recommendations people may have for helping make this kind of thing work?

(The acoustic combo amp is a Fishman Loudbox Mini BT 60-watt unit and the microphone is a Sennheiser e 825-S cardioid dynamic unit.)

 

[Wasnex]

You have a lot of things working against the vocalist.

It's very difficult to get significant gain before feedback in a small space. The sound bounces around off the walls, floor, and ceiling and finds its way into the front of the mic. With enough gain this forms a feedback loop.

A cardioid mic has a fairly wide pickup pattern. Meaning it picks up more of the sound bouncing around the room.

The BT60 is not intended to play loud. It's more for singer song writers in a relatively quiet club or coffee house. As the unit approaches clipping, it will get more compressed and start to produce distortion. I believe both of these increase the likelihood of feedback. Gain before feedback is best when the gear has plenty of headroom.

Positioning of the mic and speaker are definitely important factors. A cardioid mic has the most rejection directly behind the mic. So that is where the speaker should be placed. You will have to experiment on different locations in the room to find a place where the indirect sound is less of a factor. Draps and carpet can help reduce the reflections.

A more directional mic should also help a bit, but the optimal placement of the BT60 will move off to side. Optimal angle for the amp depends on the mic's pickup pattern.

For max gain before feedback, the vocalist should sing right on top of the mic...lightly touching the mic. If the vocalist can sing relatively loud, the gain can be turned down, which increases gain before feedback.

Elevating the BT60 and tilting it to aim at the singers head should also help the singer hear better and may help with feedback.

With a more complicated sound system, a utility EQ would be used to ring out the room. In other words you turn up the gain until feedback occurs and then you notch out the most problematic frequencies. I don't see any way to insert an EQ into the signal path of the BT60.

Given the limits of the room and the gear, the most effective thing that can be done is reduce the band's overall volume. This is probably not the answer that is wanted, but it is pretty much the best answer. Essentially, you have to play to the situation...and your situation is limited by the gear and acoustics.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Yep wrong amp/PA for what you wanting to do.

The ear plugs though needed are not helping at all.
Getting even a basic PA like a couple 12 inch powered speakers and a small mixer would help but also add to the volume and would still require a little set up fine tuning to get the most out of it.

Are you planning play out or just jam for fun? Either way you want to start getting a handle on the stage volume.

 

[Bighouse]

Yep wrong amp/PA for what you wanting to do.

The ear plugs though needed are not helping at all.
Getting even a basic PA like a couple 12 inch powered speakers and a small mixer would help but also add to the volume and would still require a little set up fine tuning to get the most out of it.

Are you planning play out or just jam for fun? Either way you want to start getting a handle on the stage volume.

We aren’t looking to gig anywhere, we are just playing for fun. It would be a lot more fun if we could hear vocals when we play. I realize we’re battling many issues here, volume is our greatest foe, but that’s really something that’s set and determined by the drums, as I understand it.
Can drummers actually play rock/punk quietly???

I also acknowledge that you all have a tremendous amount of experience in live sound- whereas I have only played with my “bandmates” fewer than 4 times…and hoping we can learn from your experiences.

 

[Wasnex]

Can drummers actually play rock/punk quietly???

It takes skill and the right equipment, but it can be done. They may not believe or agree to it though.

 

[MakoMan]

The Loudbox Mini is a great amp. I have one and use it all the time with our band... when our drummer is playing cajon!
It's unfortunately underpowered for keeping up with a drum set and a loud drummer. Your small room and the need to turn the amp up the the limit is causing your feedback problem and you're pushing the amp too hard in any case. Placement will help, but only so much in a small room.
The solution... upgrade to the Fishman Loudbox Performer. Both our guitarists have one and when we practice I sing through the lead guitarist's amp. It will easily keep up with drums for practice and gigs without being pushed. It also has an anti-feedback switch that really works

 

[tothemax]

I have a small studio (12x16 insulated shed) that I use for recording and the occasional partial band practice as it's too tight for the full band (3, sometimes 4 - tight). I have a basic PA set up in the room, which is fine for my practice sessions - mixer, 600w power amp, a pair or 12" wedges. With amped guitar, vocal, bass, and drums it's just too loud in that small space.
As a fix I picked up a decent but inexpensive set of e-drums (Katt) on CL for $150.00 and that was a game changer. Not only for being able to control the volume, but drummers don't have to haul gear. The next thing was adding a 4 way headphone amp, Behringer $30 (they can be daisy chained together). These days I use the XLR line out from my Ampeg BA-210 amp into the mixer and a cable in the headphone jack to kill the output. A VOX AC15 aimed at the wall and mic'd with a simple frame and covered with moving blankets (allows air circulation & volume as low as possible for a decent tone). Running everything, bass, vocals, drums, and guitar through the mixer into a headphone mix has made practicing in this tight space very functional and everyone can hear themselves. The upside is I can grab the mixer inserts and send the tracks to my DAW if we want a decent recording or just send the stereo mix to a digital recorder for a practice take. Best part is we can practice for a few hours without ringing ears.
It really works great... good luck with your practicing.

 

[Slevage]

Having to wear earplugs to rehearse a 3 piece band is a red flag.

You just might have to------ Fire the Drummer.

 

[GregT]

I walked in one time when a friend was setting up to play. He was confused about why he was getting feedback. I am much older so I've seen more. I told him to pull it away from the wall. He did and feedback was gone. Sometimes it's as simple as that.

 

[Ketbass]

Having to wear earplugs to rehearse a 3 piece band is a red flag.

You just might have to------ Fire the Drummer.

I did. Helped the whole thing out.

E-drums are another solution but that drummer refused to play on them. I’ve played with a lot of good drummers that know how to dampen their skins or just hold back as necessary to the room size.

 

[jthisdell]

Obviously everyone is too loud. The Band used to rehearse with no PA, made them sing louder and play quieter. Not that everyone can do this of course.

The Fishman amps are not designed to be loud despite the name. One of my bands went this route before we bought a PA. It was not good. We are not loud and our drummer is not a heavy hitter but the Loudbox would distort getting anywhere near a high enough level.

With one mic you can get a pair of powered speakers such as Yamaha DBR's and run direct into it with no mixer.

 

[Bighouse]

Having to wear earplugs to rehearse a 3 piece band is a red flag.

You just might have to------ Fire the Drummer.

We would have to find another drummer- and a new practice space!

 

[Bighouse]

I have a small studio (12x16 insulated shed) that I use for recording and the occasional partial band practice as it's too tight for the full band (3, sometimes 4 - tight). I have a basic PA set up in the room, which is fine for my practice sessions - mixer, 600w power amp, a pair or 12" wedges. With amped guitar, vocal, bass, and drums it's just too loud in that small space.
As a fix I picked up a decent but inexpensive set of e-drums (Katt) on CL for $150.00 and that was a game changer. Not only for being able to control the volume, but drummers don't have to haul gear. The next thing was adding a 4 way headphone amp, Behringer $30 (they can be daisy chained together). These days I use the XLR line out from my Ampeg BA-210 amp into the mixer and a cable in the headphone jack to kill the output. A VOX AC15 aimed at the wall and mic'd with a simple frame and covered with moving blankets (allows air circulation & volume as low as possible for a decent tone). Running everything, bass, vocals, drums, and guitar through the mixer into a headphone mix has made practicing in this tight space very functional and everyone can hear themselves. The upside is I can grab the mixer inserts and send the tracks to my DAW if we want a decent recording or just send the stereo mix to a digital recorder for a practice take. Best part is we can practice for a few hours without ringing ears.
It really works great... good luck with your practicing.

Would you consider posting pictures of your music shed setup? None of us have the property to setup a music shed, but we might be able to adapt a few of your methods.

 

[soflbass]

In my experience, and,especially in a small room, drummers set The band volume. The large manufacturers now produce low volume drum heads and cymbals. They reduce volume by 70 to 80 percent. For about $100 you can get a full set of Rtom heads.
RTOM 10/12/14/16/22 in. Low Volume Mesh Head Pack

A set of cymbals can be had from Amazon for about $75.
Mute Cymbal Set Low Volume cymbal set Cymbal set 14'hi-hat+16"crash+18'crash+20"ride 5 Pieces Silver Drummer Practice Cymbal https://a.co/d/6hHTZtU

Obviously, you will all need to play at a much reduced volume using these practice heads and cymbals. We recently switched over for rehearsals and it's made a massive improvement.

 

[Bighouse]

Obviously everyone is too loud. The Band used to rehearse with no PA, made them sing louder and play quieter. Not that everyone can do this of course.

The Fishman amps are not designed to be loud despite the name. One of my bands went this route before we bought a PA. It was not good. We are not loud and our drummer is not a heavy hitter but the Loudbox would distort getting anywhere near a high enough level.

With one mic you can get a pair of powered speakers such as Yamaha DBR's and run direct into it with no mixer.

I’ve never played live with other players before so I have no idea what the expected volumes for playing should be. I do know that I was advised to wear earplugs due to the volume and frequency of the drums. (Note: I already have tinnitus and a big dip in my hearing at the 4.5k range- so I don’t want any further damage.)

But my sense is we’re too loud. The earplugs attenuate the sound significantly, but they also muffle it for me. I would rather play at a normal room volume without plugs to better hear what’s really going on, if that’s possible with our drummer. Heck, (can I use that word here?!) it may not even be necessary to mic the vocals if we could drop the overall volume.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Can drummers actually play rock/punk quietly???

Yes! A good drummer can.

The rest make excuses.

 

[Bighouse]

OK, I see that an Evans dB One Low Volume Cymbal and Drumhead Set goes for $500 at Sweetwater. Since we're using the drummer's home, I'd consider going in half with the guitarist to gift this to the drummer- to help us play more easily without excessive volume (the neighbors will thank us), to preserve our hearing, and to serve as a "thank you" to the drummer for letting us play in his house. Seems like a fair deal to me. But, we've yet to talk about this issue with the drummer. And, I don't know if the guitarist would want to share the cost. The drummer seems like an easy-going guy- but I don't know him like the guitarist does, who's played with him for years. I've only met him for the three times we've played together.

 

[andrus108]

I’ve never played live with other players before so I have no idea what the expected volumes for playing should be. I do know that I was advised to wear earplugs due to the volume and frequency of the drums. (Note: I already have tinnitus and a big dip in my hearing at the 4.5k range- so I don’t want any further damage.)

But my sense is we’re too loud. The earplugs attenuate the sound significantly, but they also muffle it for me. I would rather play at a normal room volume without plugs to better hear what’s really going on, if that’s possible with our drummer. Heck, (can I use that word here?!) it may not even be necessary to mic the vocals if we could drop the overall volume.

What kind of ear plugs? Cheap foam will muffle the sound, then you need to turn your volume AND treble up to distinguish anything. The ones you want are designed for music, so they don't cut out so much high end. Maybe that's the first step?

I am also a beginner in vocal monitoring, and I don't know what you guys use for guitars, but to match my cranked 30W 2x12 amp I need a 12 inch PA speaker, and a 31 band EQ just to get any sound through and with no feedback. The only other option is isolating in-ears.

 

[drpepper]

OK, I see that an Evans dB One Low Volume Cymbal and Drumhead Set goes for $500 at Sweetwater. Since we're using the drummer's home, I'd consider going in half with the guitarist to gift this to the drummer- to help us play more easily without excessive volume (the neighbors will thank us), to preserve our hearing, and to serve as a "thank you" to the drummer for letting us play in his house. Seems like a fair deal to me. But, we've yet to talk about this issue with the drummer. And, I don't know if the guitarist would want to share the cost. The drummer seems like an easy-going guy- but I don't know him like the guitarist does, who's played with him for years. I've only met him for the three times we've played together.

Wow! That's the first I've heard of those. It'd be great to hear some real-world experiences with them.

And it pretty much requires that a drummer has a practice/rehearsal kit.

 

[soflbass]

OK, I see that an Evans dB One Low Volume Cymbal and Drumhead Set goes for $500 at Sweetwater. Since we're using the drummer's home, I'd consider going in half with the guitarist to gift this to the drummer- to help us play more easily without excessive volume (the neighbors will thank us), to preserve our hearing, and to serve as a "thank you" to the drummer for letting us play in his house. Seems like a fair deal to me. But, we've yet to talk about this issue with the drummer. And, I don't know if the guitarist would want to share the cost. The drummer seems like an easy-going guy- but I don't know him like the guitarist does, who's played with him for years. I've only met him for the three times we've played together.

The Rtoms we got are $100. See my post above. They sound great. YMMV