Double Bass adjustable soundpost – Anima Nova

[MikeCanada]

I may get fricasseed for this, but the first time I have to fish a dropped soundpost out of a DB I use a dab of silicone adhesive to attach a small metal washer to the middle of the soundpost (hoping that small bit of metal does not impede the post from its proper function). Then, the next time the rascal drops, I simply stick one of those magnetic gooseneck screw retrievers one can get from AutoZone into an f-hole to snag the post.

How often is the post falling over? What kind of conditions is it under that's making this happen? I am fortunate enough that I don't have a whole lot of seasonal movement in my instrument, but I'm trying to figure out circumstances where it would be falling over regularly enough that a "quicker" retrieval method is needed.

 

[GretschWretch]

How often is the post falling over? What kind of conditions is it under that's making this happen? I am fortunate enough that I don't have a whole lot of seasonal movement in my instrument, but I'm trying to figure out circumstances where it would be falling over regularly enough that a "quicker" retrieval method is needed.

Fingerboard dressing. Cutting a bridge. Any circumstance where the bass is not strung up under full tension. You also seem to be assuming I have only a single DB. I don't. And over time I got fed up with the non-quick methods.

 

[MikeCanada]

Not necessarily assuming that you had one bass, it sounded like this was a method that you had employed more than once. More so wondering how often the bass(es) in question are not under full tension. Fingerboard dressing and cutting a new bridge both don't seem like "it's been a week, I guess I should do it again" type operations, and I've known quite a few basses to go years before something like that needs to happen.

I can see if you are constantly working on one bass or the other then having one not under tension might happen, or if fishing out a sound post is that one thing you really hate doing in the shop then sure. I just wasn't coming up with a situation (other than potentially a travel bass with removable neck) where the post would have to be moved all that frequently.

 

[robobass]

Some of us constantly fiddle with our sound posts, and others go for more than a decade without adjustment. I'm thinking this is a question of preparedness. Some people keep a half year's worth of dry goods in the cellar. You never know. GretschWretch's solution may seem overkill to you, but to many it isn't. Germany is the home of obsessive preparedness. I've seen incredibly elaborate lightening rod fixtures which likely cost several thousand bucks on a single family house, and architectural fixtures which were certainly at least a hundred times beefier than what any sensible engineer would recommend. Do you unplug your toaster when you aren't using it? Many say you should. Considering how often I've dropped a soundpost in my lifetime, GretschWretch's idea seems excessive to me, but based on James' posts, some people deal with this much more often.

 

[groooooove]

i'm by no means stuck in the world of tradition, but of all the things to do with carbon fiber... why a soundpost?

i love my carbon fiber endpin, as well as my bow. all this talk about it being so resonant doesn't do it for me though- yes, i love my metropolitan french bow. it's the only bow i've used for years. but i know 100% it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as even a cheap brazilwood stick- CF bows are all about balance and responce, not sound.

when sound is concerned, i don't see why people are attracted to CF. i do undersdtand its use in general, lightweight, durable, ext. but these aren't qualities that jump out to me in responce to "how to innovate soundposts?"

i'd be all for trying different species of wood for soundposts- and would be curious to see/hear a/b testing with this new post and a quality, properly fit, spruce post. but i can't help expecting spruce to win the sound contest. as far as it not falling, i've only had one post fall on me and that was becuase i was young and stupid and took all 4 strings off at once while the bass was standing on the endpin.

and no post in a thread like this is complete without adding that i've had Jeff Bollbach fit new posts in 2 of my basses. he charged me $100 each time. the results were hugely noticable, even comming from another wood post. proper fitting means the world with posts. a master luthier can work wonders with a spruce dowel- i've seen it first hand on two different basses!

 

[drurb]

Some of us constantly fiddle with our sound posts...

I think that's the problem right there.

 

[GretschWretch]

Not necessarily assuming that you had one bass, it sounded like this was a method that you had employed more than once. More so wondering how often the bass(es) in question are not under full tension. Fingerboard dressing and cutting a new bridge both don't seem like "it's been a week, I guess I should do it again" type operations, and I've known quite a few basses to go years before something like that needs to happen.

I can see if you are constantly working on one bass or the other then having one not under tension might happen, or if fishing out a sound post is that one thing you really hate doing in the shop then sure. I just wasn't coming up with a situation (other than potentially a travel bass with removable neck) where the post would have to be moved all that frequently.

Your second paragraph pretty much nails it, Mike. It's the "constantly working on one bass." If the bridge comes off and the soundpost drops, I just fish it out and adhese about a 1/4" diameter metal washer before reinstalling the post. The mischief is that until I get the 'board and the bridge "just right" the soundpost position is only approximate, to support the top as I tune up for a trial. Often the rough set is loose, which encourages the post to drop. Once I am satisfied with my adjustments, I tune up and do a final positioning of the soundpost for tone. Once that is done, the strings stay under tension to standard pitch, and the post stays in place.

Probably I could have forestalled a lot of confusion and misapprehension in my initial post if I had chosen my words better, like saying "set-up" to better put things in context.

 

[JoeyNaeger]

Your second paragraph pretty much nails it, Mike. It's the "constantly working on one bass." If the bridge comes off and the soundpost drops, I just fish it out and adhese about a 1/4" diameter metal washer before reinstalling the post. The mischief is that until I get the 'board and the bridge "just right" the soundpost position is only approximate, to support the top as I tune up for a trial. Often the rough set is loose, which encourages the post to drop. Once I am satisfied with my adjustments, I tune up and do a final positioning of the soundpost for tone. Once that is done, the strings stay under tension to standard pitch, and the post stays in place.

Probably I could have forestalled a lot of confusion and misapprehension in my initial post if I had chosen my words better, like saying "set-up" to better put things in context.

I'm of the opinion that a sound post should fit just snug enough to stay in place when tension comes off. When soundsposts fall, that suggests there's a problem with the fit.

 

[MikeCanada]

I'm thinking this is a question of preparedness. Some people keep a half year's worth of dry goods in the cellar. You never know. GretschWretch's solution may seem overkill to you, but to many it isn't. Germany is the home of obsessive preparedness. I've seen incredibly elaborate lightening rod fixtures which likely cost several thousand bucks on a single family house, and architectural fixtures which were certainly at least a hundred times beefier than what any sensible engineer would recommend. Do you unplug your toaster when you aren't using it? Many say you should. Considering how often I've dropped a soundpost in my lifetime, GretschWretch's idea seems excessive to me, but based on James' posts, some people deal with this much more often.

I agree that a lot of it comes down to personal philosophy. I could likely get by without a trip to the grocery store for a month or two if I had to given what is currently in the house, and I do unplug my toaster when I am done with it. I can see how those things seem normal to me, but others might find them overly prepared/cautious. Similarly I wasn't trying to suggest what GretschWretch was doing was wrong or a bad idea, I was just trying to establish some context and figure out why or what situation would require something of that nature. Whether or not it is overkill isn't my place to say because I'm not the one doing the work, but I'm also one of those "set it and forget it" guys when it comes to the soundpost.

Your second paragraph pretty much nails it, Mike. It's the "constantly working on one bass." If the bridge comes off and the soundpost drops, I just fish it out and adhese about a 1/4" diameter metal washer before reinstalling the post. The mischief is that until I get the 'board and the bridge "just right" the soundpost position is only approximate, to support the top as I tune up for a trial. Often the rough set is loose, which encourages the post to drop. Once I am satisfied with my adjustments, I tune up and do a final positioning of the soundpost for tone. Once that is done, the strings stay under tension to standard pitch, and the post stays in place.

Probably I could have forestalled a lot of confusion and misapprehension in my initial post if I had chosen my words better, like saying "set-up" to better put things in context.

This was what I got thinking about after writing my response above. I figured if you are fitting a new bridge or nut, dressing a fingerboard, or doing anything else that requires less tension on the instrument and potentially the post coming down, it isn't just a one and done type operation. I haven't got into the instrument side of things much, but it does seem like it would be annoying if you have to fish out the post and reset it several times over the course of a repair, and making that faster/easier could definitely be convenient.

As to whether or not I would permanently fix something to the sound post, that's a personal choice as well. From an armchair strategist point of view, I could see tying a string or some waxed thread (that would be less prone to sliding off) to the post and leaving a tail out the f hole during the operation, so you could reel the post in when it falls, but cut the thread when you've got it fit for the last time. It has the advantage of being a temporary solution where a client/yourself does not have a washer attached to the post, but the disadvantage that you would have to fish it out the next time you decide to do something with that post coming down. If it is your own instruments and you don't have an issue with the washer then I don't see any problem with it, but it's another possibility for a client's instrument.

I'm of the opinion that a sound post should fit just snug enough to stay in place when tension comes off. When soundsposts fall, that suggests there's a problem with the fit.

Although I have a much smaller sample size to work from than Joey, this has often been my experience. On almost every instrument I have seen where the post has come down, a new post has been the answer instead of refitting the old one. With that said, I can see a post falling if an instrument is particularly susceptible to large seasonal/climate shifts. There are guys up North who turn bridge adjusters significantly when the weather changes, and a colleague of mine who has a fantastic bass where the same seam opens up year after year. It's a wonderful instrument, but it's unbelievable how much it changes from summer to winter.

 

[GretschWretch]

I'm of the opinion that a sound post should fit just snug enough to stay in place when tension comes off. When soundsposts fall, that suggests there's a problem with the fit.

I quite agree. But as I mentioned, the "loose fit" is just an in-process transition to prevent the top collapsing under the test string-up(s). Once fingerboard and bridge are to my satisfaction then comes fine-tuning with the position of the soundpost, at which time it should stay in place even with tension off.

But I'd rather risk a dropped post from it being too loose than a damaged top from it being too tight.

 

[GretschWretch]

I agree that a lot of it comes down to personal philosophy. I could likely get by without a trip to the grocery store for a month or two if I had to given what is currently in the house, and I do unplug my toaster when I am done with it. I can see how those things seem normal to me, but others might find them overly prepared/cautious. Similarly I wasn't trying to suggest what GretschWretch was doing was wrong or a bad idea, I was just trying to establish some context and figure out why or what situation would require something of that nature. Whether or not it is overkill isn't my place to say because I'm not the one doing the work, but I'm also one of those "set it and forget it" guys when it comes to the soundpost.



This was what I got thinking about after writing my response above. I figured if you are fitting a new bridge or nut, dressing a fingerboard, or doing anything else that requires less tension on the instrument and potentially the post coming down, it isn't just a one and done type operation. I haven't got into the instrument side of things much, but it does seem like it would be annoying if you have to fish out the post and reset it several times over the course of a repair, and making that faster/easier could definitely be convenient.

As to whether or not I would permanently fix something to the sound post, that's a personal choice as well. From an armchair strategist point of view, I could see tying a string or some waxed thread (that would be less prone to sliding off) to the post and leaving a tail out the f hole during the operation, so you could reel the post in when it falls, but cut the thread when you've got it fit for the last time. It has the advantage of being a temporary solution where a client/yourself does not have a washer attached to the post, but the disadvantage that you would have to fish it out the next time you decide to do something with that post coming down. If it is your own instruments and you don't have an issue with the washer then I don't see any problem with it, but it's another possibility for a client's instrument.



Although I have a much smaller sample size to work from than Joey, this has often been my experience. On almost every instrument I have seen where the post has come down, a new post has been the answer instead of refitting the old one. With that said, I can see a post falling if an instrument is particularly susceptible to large seasonal/climate shifts. There are guys up North who turn bridge adjusters significantly when the weather changes, and a colleague of mine who has a fantastic bass where the same seam opens up year after year. It's a wonderful instrument, but it's unbelievable how much it changes from summer to winter.

Thanks for your thoughtful and lengthy response. Mike. First off, I am not going to deceive myself that I am a luthier or qualified to work on the instruments of others. I am neither of these things. I just am fascinated with basses and am trying to be a student of the craft, which is why I hang around with you guys: to learn your skills on how to do it right. For me, it's about information sharing, or information gleaning. Only a lot of you are more careful of your secrets than the medieval crafts guilds. Nothing do I recall seeing about retrieving soundposts. Inverting the instrument and holding it overhead while shaking it presents risks I do not care to tempt, and rolling the bass from side to side (like you are trying to aid its digestion) in hopes of bringing the soundpost beneath an f-hole where you can fetch it out with a gripping tool is not always a walk in the park either. It's not like I am sticking a larrupin' big 1" diameter washer on the post; it's the smallest washer I can find, but it's still large enough to be attracted by the magnet at the end of the gooseneck no matter where inside the bass the soundpost lies.

If those really in the know tell me the washer harms the bass or impedes the vibration of the soundpost, I will cease the practice. But IMO it presents fewer difficulties than even the string.
Fishing electronics out of an f-hole electric bass, on the other hand, the string gets used all the time.

 

[Don Kasper]

I have a length of heavy-duty upholstery thread, tied around the middle of the post, with a large loop formed with the excess, that allows me to retrieve the soundpost (if needed) with my soundpost setter.
It is 100% non-invasive with regard to sound, I believe.
Thanks.

 

[Chris Symer]

When I have messed around with things that may cause the post to fall, I have attached the neato grabby thing to the post first. That way if it falls it is already in the grip of the retractor tool. No fishing around for it. Works for me.

 

[james condino]

My main reason for soundposts falling or moving is unexpectedly crashing into things while watching pretty girls rather than paying attention to where I am going; not so much a technical issue with the bass setup.

Is Matthew out there lurking??? He showed me a very cool, very low tech soundpost "retriever" that he made out of wood at the Oberlin workshops a couple of years ago- brilliant for its simple elegance.

 

[JoeyNaeger]

My main reason for soundposts falling or moving is unexpectedly crashing into things while watching pretty girls rather than paying attention to where I am going; not so much a technical issue with the bass setup.

Is Matthew out there lurking??? He showed me a very cool, very low tech soundpost "retriever" that he made out of wood at the Oberlin workshops a couple of years ago- brilliant for its simple elegance.

In case he isn't, I found a picture of Matthew's jig. Simple and elegant.

 

[Florent Ghys]

A friend of mine just had this carbon fiber soundpost installed on her cello. Her instrument sounds way more opened and way louder than before; pretty awesome.
Has anybody actually tried this on a bass?

 

[SAlcott]

I'm going up to AES next week for my biannual soundpost swap and will see if Arnold thinks my bass would benefit from the Anima Nova post. Watch this space.

 

[Florent Ghys]

In the meanwhile I actually got it for my bass. They were at the ISB convention in Ithaca.
Appart from the price, it is super awesome. Really opens up my bass and I love the idea of adjusting the tension myself. Amazing work.
A few NY-based luthiers were trying it at the convention so I guess we'll hear about it pretty soon.

 

[SAlcott]

We ended up tweaking my current post-my bass is pretty young and the one piece back gives a little more stability through weather changes. If it were older and more affected by weather, I'd have tried the CF post.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

if you live somwhere like Chicago---the idea of a soundpost that can be height adjusted under tension is a fantastic idea. The problem with pulling out a soundpost and reinserting it---it takes days to settle in to see if the change was good or bad. It's really guesswork. The pressure on the soundpost really determines the response of an instrument. This is way too pricey, but I'm still tempted. I know guys in Chicago that have 4 soundposts---and they make a huge difference. I only do two---but I'm lazy. I'm going to get in touch with them. I once toyed with the idea of cutting a soundpost in half, putting a wood insert nut on one side and using a bass bridge wheel to adjust height. It would be hard to adjust though. Theirs adjusts with some sort of hex wrench. I belive that a bass might sound better--and at least be able to optimize pressure. It's like some guys that have a $50k bass and dicker over a hundre bucks on a speaker. If my bass feels more consistant from season to season--I'd pay it. Geez---guys are spending $400 on a set of guts that don't last a year--or are buying $600 mics----man--the soundpost is one of the most important aspects of your sound.