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Adler Sub Contra Bass

#41
Ninestring said:
Here is a decending C# major scale ending up on the low C# . It's not my best take , but see if you can make out the last three notes played on the C# string. I'll put up some different mp3 files if this works ok.I ran out of time today ,so this recording is "on the fly ".
Click to expand...
The final three notes don't come through at all on the little speakers I have on my work computer (harman/kardon FYI). All I get is a clicking noise, like a finger stringing the string, for the last three notes.
 
#43
Ninestring said:
Here is a decending C# major scale ending up on the low C# . It's not my best take , but see if you can make out the last three notes played on the C# string. I'll put up some different mp3 files if this works ok.I ran out of time today ,so this recording is "on the fly ".
Click to expand...
It worked quite well! Very discernable.
 
#44
I can hear the lower notes fine w/ a fairly cheap pair of circumaural headphones.

They sound like they would do OK mixed with other instruments / notes on the bass, but soloed they are warbly and just not very toneful. Better sounding than any bass I've ever heard tuned that low, but still a long ways to go before the open C# is a completely useful note.
 
#45
P.S. You get some of the same effect here as with the low pipe organ notes: the fundmental can be heard as a modulation of the higher harmonics. So, even though you may not be able to hear a 17Hz sine wave, on the open C# there is a "pulsing" quality to the sound. I think this is the fundamental modulating the harmonics -- the amplitude of the frequencies you *can* hear is being changed at 17Hz.

P.P.S. If anyone ever pumps extremely low frequencies (say a 16Hz sine wave) through speakers that measurably cannot reproduce that frequency, yet they claim to hear the tone -- this is what they are hearing. The modulated harmonic distortion.
 
#46
The same clip sounds pretty good out of my 4406 JBL's. When I clicked on the audio , it played on Real Player , and didn't come through as well. I'll work on some more recordings ,with and without compression and see if it improves. You can't judge the string just on this clip. I'll post some more ,different short clips.
 
#47
Yeah - I did jump the gun a bit just based on the one clip.

Anyway, to continue my windbagginess -- :D

One thing about training your ear to listen for sounds this low, is that you begin to hear them all the time. Air conditioning systems, large trucks parked a block away, all sorts of things in our everyday environment make sounds down in the infrasonic to sub-bass range. I've been in public places (restaurants) where there was a constant, quite loud, extremely low rumble in parts of the room (usually corners). I think that most people do not even "hear" (notice) it. Because if you do, you don't want to spend any time there - it's annoying and disturbing.

I'm sure that the HVAC resonances in many office buildings do much to contribute to the various ills that people working there suffer.
 
#48
Well I could "hear" all the notes but I wouldn't say that I would be able to tell they were "notes" per se on their own. I'm sure it would be much different live on a proper rig so I'm not going to base any opinion of the thing from what I hear out of these tiny speakers. Very interesting though.
 
#50
I must be a geek I'm here in a recording studio with my Lap top.and since I'm on a break while the Engineer chews the guitar player out,I thought Id drop by.fella's for the sake of it all the String can be heard(I have not heard what Garry has posted)but some systems just don't produce the note as clear as other systems.I will not debate and I mean this with the most respect wether or not the note can be heard when some of you who have heard what Garry has done here.and I'm sure Garry will record another one.one of the first Bass players to hear my open Low C# string was Bill Dickens(he mentions it in is Interview at bassinside.com) and it blew him away and that was on the phone.one other thing,some Bass players ears had to adjust to the sound of a low B when they first started gaining popularity.And who would use a speaker that small live?:)anyway plus in the studio in,the mix down and Mastering process that low freq.can be obtained in a very audible and clear tone.if organs and Borssindorf pianos can record and give you a clear Low C# why not a Electric Bass.
p.s.
Remember theres
Post,Actual Production
and pre production,
all viable ingredients
to any recording project.
 
#51
Mark Latimour said:
The final three notes don't come through at all on the little speakers I have on my work computer (harman/kardon FYI). All I get is a clicking noise, like a finger stringing the string, for the last three notes.
Click to expand...


Well this is interesting. When I record direct to the HHB 850, I hear the string clealy on a pair of Koss headphones . the kind they rent to you to watch a movie on an airplane. I think the MP3 format can't handle low end.

I am not going to BS you guys and tell the string sounds great if it didn't. We are entering new areas of the bass guitar. We are all in this together. I never heard the string reproduced properly until I played through the Basson speakers. Trying to hear something we have never heard before requires some time and research before we pass judgement. I have spent considerablr time voicing 32' organ pipes and that Bosendoerfer has a low F# . What acoustic or acoustic electric instrument has a C# 00 string ?
 
#52
Ninestring said:
Well this is interesting. When I record direct to the HHB 850, I hear the string clealy on a pair of Koss headphones . the kind they rent to you to watch a movie on an airplane. I think the MP3 format can't handle low end.

I am not going to BS you guys and tell the string sounds great if it didn't. We are entering new areas of the bass guitar. We are all in this together. I never heard the string reproduced properly until I played through the Basson speakers. Trying to hear something we have never heard before requires some time and research before we pass judgement. I have spent considerablr time voicing 32' organ pipes and that Bosendoerfer has a low F# . What acoustic or acoustic electric instrument has a C# 00 string ?
Click to expand...
I will try listening to it again at home with my Senhessier HD-270's and the CafeWalter HA-1 preamp - hopefully I will be able to make out the notes then. I didnt really think I would have much chance at work - the speakers are pretty bad.
 
#53
Okay, I had a listen throught the cafe-walter and a good set of headphones. You can definately "hear" the lowest three notes, however the bottom two are barely (if at all) distinguishable to my ears.

They also do appear to "pulse" and it is quite disconcerting! That is probably the modulation that geshel is talking about.

I can't really see them being useful for anything other than "live" (which I can't comment on) or with really high end audio gear as the three other sets of speaks ive listen to (two bookshelf hifi and computer speakers) have been unable to reproduce the bottom three notes.

But a very cool experiment Garry! Please post more clips if you can, would love to try to hear a groove played on the low string!
 
#56
So each of us is having a different experience with this sample. I don't think MP3 is the best vehicle , and although we have to find a common denominator , i.e. computer speakers ,then different EQ-ing may be in order. But that cuts back on the fundamental , which is what really makes this string "happen".

If you can find other recordings of notes below 27 Hz (the F# on the Bosendorfer grand) or 32' pipe organ , I think we encounter the same situation.

I keep the 3 fixed eq bands on the 11 string cranked up to let all frequencies pass. The point of the C# major scale was to demonstrate that the ear can be "lead" by following the scale down to the lower notes. The audio world may have to adapt to 17 Hz.

We are really addressing a new area for bass strings with this issue and so most head phones and speaker specs bottom out at a higher hertz. Jauqo and I ( and a few others)are excited by Basson speakers because we heard the 11 and 4 string fretless sound as clear as the F# amd B strings at NAMM.

I am glad all of us on this thread are really the first to discuss and hear the early recordings on a C# string. I read all of your posts and it helps make the next recording get closer to being what needs to be heard. It was a bold thing for Jauqo and Mike Adler to create a sub contra fretless bass. I wish those of you who couldn't attend the NAMM show could have tried Jauqo's fretless 4 string. Just sliding up and down on the low C# string at 5oo watts through the Basson 4X10 felt great.

I may try runnig a direct in and mic- ing my Basson BH15 with a AKG C414 b-tl at the 15" speaker. I'll post some more audio within 24 hours (5:30 am here on Monday).


More samples on the way.
 
#57
This post has a few facts, a few opinions, and a question. Please keep in mind that I am not trying to maliciously rain on anyone's parade, and that in particular regarding the question, that this is not a personal attack, it is a request for clarification.
Ninestring said:
Well this is interesting. When I record direct to the HHB 850, I hear the string clealy on a pair of Koss headphones . the kind they rent to you to watch a movie on an airplane. I think the MP3 format can't handle low end.
Click to expand...
For what it's worth, with my ears and my soundcard and headphones, while I get sound and not just clicking or warble all the way down, I would only call "musical" what I hear down to the A#.
Ninestring said:
I have spent considerablr time voicing 32' organ pipes
Click to expand...
Maybe we're thinking of two different meanings of the word "voicing" here. Are you saying that you have worked as a pipe organ technician, adjusting the mechanics of organ pipes?
Ninestring said:
and that Bosendoerfer has a low F# . What acoustic or acoustic electric instrument has a C# 00 string ?
Click to expand...
For the record, a standard piano goes down to the A below a contrabass low B. (Opinion: until you get up to a decently sized grand, or a very well-made large upright, anything below the standard bass low E or the D below that sounds poorly.) Bösendorfer makes two extended-range models. One goes down to F, 1/2 step below the F# of a subcontrabass; and one goes down to C (that's right, 16.35Hz!) 1/2 step below the C# of the Adler ("Jaquo's C#").

The Low C Bösendorfer is 9' 6" long, with a low C string that is probably at least 8' long, in order to be able to have a string held at high enough tension to get some good tone out of it.
 
#58
That is a valid post. I sat down with several Bosendorfers and you know , it took a second or so for the low F# (27Hz) to "unfold" into a recognizable tone. Voicing a pipe by adjusting the " frane" ( spelling not correct") so the pipe speaks correctly is what I mean by voicing.

The Bosendorfer F# seemed to be , for 99% of musical applications ,useless because of the delay due to size. The low C your mention must really get ignored by most pianist.


The use of a C# string on a bass guitar is not just for the low C#, D, Eb E and F. The notes you can access on the higher frets are what make having that string a plus. The piano low C or F# only sounds that note. If I posted audio with me playing right hand touch bass while playing chords with my left hand in the guitar register , one might never realize my bass has a low C# string. I think this thread had to start with the question " can I distinguish that lowest note as part of the overall bass guitar sound ? "

As a bass guitarist , having that extra string to hit the low G , an octave below the 4 string's lowest G up at the 6th fret , C# string is what the string is all about., Those higher notes are clear as a bell. Yes , the lower 5 notes adding another low string gives you is great , but the flexability of having access to notes that previously could only be played on the first 5 frets of the low F# and B string is the point of this string .

As with any string ,it is only as effective as what a player does with it. Give it a chance . I have heard this string support a 7 piece band ,and the effect is very cool.
 
#59
john turner said:
actually, bag end makes a sub woofer that would have no problem with the low c#. other companies, such as accugroove, do as well.
Click to expand...

Dang, John, you caught me. And I thought I had been so thorough. But . . .

Bag End claims reponse down to 8 Hz (not a typo, that's EIGHT Hz) for some of their models when used with the matching integrator. I've always been fascinated by that rating because I wonder how they measure it, and what it would feel like to have it reproduce something in that range (Earthquakes? Thunder?).

The Accugroove Whappo Grande (21" sub) is rated as -6 db at 19 Hz - I would say close, but not quite up to the low C# with at least a bit of EQ help.

So, I would still say the SPL is the only one (that I know of, so far) to play in that range without outside electronic assistance.

Anyone else got a low-end champ I missed? Come on, I can take it . . . ;)
 

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