Advice Needed, Rhythm Issue

[Whousedtoplay]

the Bruno version everyone (from the vocalist to the horn players) agrees what the groove is and it feels way more relaxed.

The Bruno version has a clearly pronounced SWING/Triplet feel.

A few measures just slow.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=30b2c0a5f56c382563d9b36809dbcd32


The Roson version is, kind of rock-ishly dry, due to the drum (especially, the hi-hat) pattern (played with that "behind the beat" microtiming) simplicity (and because of that) - more difficult to adjust and produce/pronounce triplet feel, but...
The bass line from Ronson's version is well "pocketed".

As always, at much slower tempo.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=30b2c0a5f56c382563d9b36809dbcd32

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I am not saying the Ronson version is horrible, it just doesn't feel quite right

The drum pattern has that "dry punk-ish" tone/timbre especially with that minimalistic hi-hat pattern of just even quarter notes (at 214BPM). Even the Kick tone reminds me the drums from Robert Palmer's - Addicted To Love


The Bruno version is the good old dancing SWING.

 

[Wasnex]

The drum pattern has that "dry punk-ish" tone/timbre especially with that minimalistic hi-hat pattern of just even quarter notes (at 214BPM). Even the Kick tone reminds me the drums from Robert Palmer's - Addicted To Love


The Bruno version is the good old dancing SWING.

Obviously I am more at home with the swing Vs punk interpretation. My point is the Ronson video would probably be a lot better if everyone in the band was on the same page on this matter, but unfortunately they are not.

 

[klyph]

Besides that "half-beat" confusion (to me it's more like a 16th displacement issue), the performance lost a whole harmonic rhythm bar at 214BPM.

Correct. I noticed that too, and originally noted it in my post. I then edited it out because I wasn’t sure and didn’t want to sit at the piano for a half hour before replying (lazy!). I also wasn’t sure that it wasn’t intentional, or that Bruno sang the right lyrics, etc. If it is a flub on Bruno’s part, that makes the “save” on the backup singers’ part even more impressive. It may also, as I think you mean to suggest, be what caused the smaller rhythmic discrepancy. The thing is, as soon as the drummer stops, the feel gets mushy. Bruno is on his own. The clapping/snapping is all over the place. There is a reason orchestras have conductors. Or bass vocalists with a click coming through IEMs. The trick is to reconcile a truncated or excluded measure with the momentum of an urgent groove by tailoring to the lyrics, which they did here, pretty smoothly. I don’t have the impressive resume that many of you have, but I have been backing singers for thirty years and have had to do this many times. When an unflappable, aggressive drummer is behind the kit KEEPING TIME, it’s pretty easy. I have also played with other kinds of drummers...

I have also had singers get lost when this happens and then I have to vamp and “sing them back in” off mic with the right lyrics, etc.

I’m not the prettiest, or the most personable, but being able to do stuff like this keeps my phone ringing.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I am more at home with the swing Vs punk interpretation.

Maybe, Amy liked that rhythmic patter of "Walking like an Egyptian"?

A live version.

(A live bass line!)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Correct. I noticed that too, and originally noted it in my post.

Another really live version of Valerie by Bruno without that annoying glitch.
(Maybe, just a millimeter off that snapping.)
At 2:11.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

(Off-topic about busy bass lines)

 

[Wasnex]

Maybe, Amy liked that rhythmic patter of "Walking like an Egyptian"?

A live version.

(A live bass line!)

This version seems a lot more solid to me. Perhaps it's because the bass is mixed a lot hotter, so there is more glue to hold everything together. The whole band and Amy all seem to agree on this one. Oddly the groove still makes me feel a bit anxious because it is wound so tight, but that's my problem to deal with . Course, it's of no consequence because my time as a performer is most likely past.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

As a tribute to a wonderful Amy, here she is introducing the bass player as
"On the bass - One of my favorite people in the whole world, and definetely my second favorite man on this stage".

Bass - Dale Davis.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Oddly the groove still makes me feel a bit anxious

Not all "grooves" are alike and not all "grooves" are equally acceptable by me but it depends on the intention of the song's mood, character.
Amy was not a smooth swing singer. In her phrasing one would encounter a lot of "punk-inism".
R.I.P. Amy.

 

[klyph]

Another really live version of Valerie by Bruno without that annoying glitch.
(Maybe, just a millimeter off that snapping.)
At 2:11.

It’s pretty much right on in every way. I would attribute that mostly to the much smaller stage/venue. They can actually hear the drummer clicking his sticks! What a huge difference in the bass. The first clip he’s doing all sorts of Jameson/Rainey stuff (which I am totally copping) and has a tone to match. In this clip he sounds like Bruce Thomas! Not only for the hot tone but also a more aggressive, simpler approach. Same dude, same bass, same dance moves. Cool!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It’s pretty much right on in every way. I would attribute that mostly to the much smaller stage/venue. They can actually hear the drummer clicking his sticks! What a huge difference in the bass. The first clip he’s doing all sorts of Jameson/Rainey stuff (which I am totally copping) and has a tone to match. In this clip he sounds like Bruce Thomas! Not only for the hot tone but also a more aggressive, simpler approach. Same dude, same bass, same dance moves. Cool!

Thank you for a nice conversation about music.

This version seems a lot more solid to me. Perhaps it's because the bass is mixed a lot hotter, so there is more glue to hold everything together. The whole band and Amy all seem to agree on this one. Oddly the groove still makes me feel a bit anxious because it is wound so tight, but that's my problem to deal with . Course, it's of no consequence because my time as a performer is most likely past.

Thank you for a nice conversation about music.
I really liked it.

 

[Wasnex]

Not all "grooves" are alike and not all "grooves" are equally acceptable by me but it depends on the intention of the song's mood, character.

Hopefully we have at least illuminated some of the nuance and complexity that makes it difficult for a bass player and drummer to lock in.

Amy was not a smooth swing singer. In her phrasing one would encounter a lot of "punk-inism".
R.I.P. Amy.

Yes, an enigma wrapped in an onion. I never really listened to her much, but I would guess she was highly influenced by Etta James and bunch of more modern stuff.

 

[gregj8787]

ok, a follow-up on this issue… Against my wishes, we played Valerie (Mark Ronson version) in a live gig last night. To my relief it worked. My bass was locked-in with the drums, and we grooved it fine. The crowd was dancing and responding. It worked the way it is supposed to.

The difference, my drummer did 2 things; 1. He put a click track into his in-ear mix, as some in this thread suggested. And 2. He mixed in a little of the recorded drum track into his in-ear mix only. While playing he focused on that drum track. Some might call that cheating, but I’m ok with it because it got us past the issue.

After the set, smiles and a laugh from my drummer about it, no dirty looks or complaints about me rushing. To say I am relieved is an understatement.

I am still going to record this at rehearsal. I look forward to the day we can both play it without any in-ear assistance.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

1. He put a click track into his in-ear mix, as some in this thread suggested. And 2. He mixed in a little of the recorded drum track into his in-ear mix only.

I've been around so many various kinds of musicians who have talked about (complained about) other musicians' "issues" like timing.
In short it's only my personal opinion that nobody could ever change.
Without starting another lame thread about "the value of metronome", I would say this:
Any musicians playing in their comfortable music styles/genres must be able to play it easily/comfortable with the CLICK/METRONOME.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
Let's say.
If we play some country music, then, playing with a click should not affect any musician's musical ability to perform "up to par" while rendering this/that country song.
If we play some pop/disco music, then, playing with a click should not affect any musician's ... and so on.
Now.
Before any drummer speaks out about some "timing" issues, I need to see that the drummer is capable to deliver the properly articulated drumming pattern, fills, context while playing with a click.
I need to see/hear that the drummer delivers the same performance (I'm not talking about some soloing parts), the same groove, the same mood, etc... while playing WITH or WITHOUT the metronome.

 

[klyph]

WOW! He obviously somehow diagnosed his shortcoming and took action to correct it. The proper application of DISCIPLINE, unfettered by ego or emotions. Maybe a teacher helped him, maybe just hard time with a metronome or recording. The fact that you did not have to directly participate is a true blessing. Having to point these things out can put a huge strain on working relationships. Congratulations.

It’s funny, I don’t think anybody actually counseled you to suggest a click in this thread. I mentioned it assuming that you wouldn’t, mostly because I’m an old fart who hasn’t played a lot of big stages. When I started gigging, few (read:none) bands were using them at the club level, and their use in a live setting was derided by many musicians.

But your drummer figured out that he needed to stop listening to the singer and keep time. He is also technically adept enough to aid himself in doing so. A keeper, for sure. Despite all the mean things we said yesterday!

 

[Wasnex]

I've been around so many various kinds of musicians who have talked about (complained about) other musicians' "issues" like timing.
In short it's only my personal opinion that nobody could ever change.
Without starting another lame thread about "the value of metronome", I would say this:
Any musicians playing in their comfortable music styles/genres must be able to play it easily/comfortable with the CLICK/METRONOME.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
Let's say.
If we play some country music, then, playing with a click should not affect any musician's musical ability to perform "up to par" while rendering this/that country song.
If we play some pop/disco music, then, playing with a click should not affect any musician's ... and so on.
Now.
Before any drummer speaks out about some "timing" issues, I need to see that the drummer is capable to deliver the properly articulated drumming pattern, fills, context while playing with a click.
I need to see/hear that the drummer delivers the same performance (I'm not talking about some soloing parts), the same groove, the same mood, etc... while playing WITH or WITHOUT the metronome.

IMHO there is value in practicing with a metronome, but we do need to recognize that it is not the same as playing with a person. When we vary the pocket with a metronome, it does not respond. But a person typically does respond if we vary the pocket.

So you can practice pushing and pulling the beat with a metronome to develop the ability to sustain rhythmic tension. But ultimately it won't work if you and your drummer don't agree on the amount of rhythmic tension that is appropriate. Unfortunately this gets extremely complicated because of distance and masking.

The rhythmic tension is created by a slight displacement in time between where you are placing the beat and where the drummer is placing it. Distance is significant because it takes time for sound to travel the distance. So if you change where you are standing in relation to the drum set, it changes your perception of the feel. Now the distance is normally so short that it shouldn't matter, but you also need to consider that the sound needs to travel the distance, and you need time to react to it, and then your sound needs to travel back to the drummer. So there are multiple mechanisms going on that can stretch out the delay where it starts bordering on perceptible.

Masking relates to where the drummer perceives your ictus. This is going to change with how your amp is aimed and how your tone controls are adjusted. If you use a bright sound and your speaker is aimed at the drummer, he/she will hear the front end of your beat and perceive your ictus early. If you sound is dark and your amp is aimed away from the drummer, he/she will perceive your ictus late. Ironically I find time is often more stable when the drummer is complaining that he/she can't hear the bass. Under these circumstances, the drummer is just laying down time instead of responding to the pocket, so I can basically play off the drummer like a metronome.

I have worked with some drummers who sound fabulous when playing with a click and others who were awful. The ones who were bad typically wanted to play with either a half note or whole note click. The tempo stayed constant on average, but varied constantly because their subdivisions were not accurate. IMHO only the drummer should hear the click if one is used during performance.

 

[Wasnex]

WOW! He obviously somehow diagnosed his shortcoming and took action to correct it. The proper application of DISCIPLINE, unfettered by ego or emotions. Maybe a teacher helped him, maybe just hard time with a metronome or recording. The fact that you did not have to directly participate is a true blessing. Having to point these things out can put a huge strain on working relationships. Congratulations.

It’s funny, I don’t think anybody actually counseled you to suggest a click in this thread. I mentioned it assuming that you wouldn’t, mostly because I’m an old fart who hasn’t played a lot of big stages. When I started gigging, few (read:none) bands were using them at the club level, and their use in a live setting was derided by many musicians.

But your drummer figured out that he needed to stop listening to the singer and keep time. He is also technically adept enough to aid himself in doing so. A keeper, for sure. Despite all the mean things we said yesterday!

Perhaps not. More likely the click served as an honest broker. It's likely the OP and drummer still have subtlety different interpretation of the groove, but as long as the drummer focuses on the click, his perception of the bass pushing the beat is overridden.

There is probably still benefit in the drummer learning to hear/play the groove in the proper punkish way.

 

[klyph]

Perhaps not. More likely the click served as an honest broker.

Huh? Who feels the need to avail themselves of an “honest broker” without introspection, comeuppance or applied force (or some combination of those things)? Nobody, that’s who. The OP didn’t force or shame this drummer into using a click (or even suggest it!) and didn’t use one himself. That leaves introspection on the drummer’s part, as the sole reason for the change.

Does his employ of this make him a BETTER DRUMMER? Most likely NOT. If that is your point, we can certainly agree....He won’t actually BE a better drummer until he can keep time without the crutch. But he came to the realization that he was LAME on his own (again, assuming a teacher didn’t point it out).Whether getting “better” means compensating mentally for what the bass is doing, learning different feels, practicing TM, going deaf, etc., is immaterial. Maybe he will need to use the click forever. (ugh...)

Give this drummer some credit (if not gigs) and stop harshing my buzz, man...

Small, provisional, victories matter- none more in this forum than a bar filled (hell, even half-filled) with dancing people...

 

[klyph]

Ironically I find time is often more stable when the drummer is complaining that he/she can't hear the bass. Under these circumstances, the drummer is just laying down time instead of responding to the pocket, so I can basically play off the drummer like a metronome.

This kind of reinforces my point about tuning out the singer and keeping time. Many drummers focus on other things besides the bass. Many teachers probably instruct their charges to “listen carefully to the singer” - thereby paving the road to hell!

I play with fill in drummers, often 20+ years younger, all the time. The popularity of hip hop, and lack of a variety of swinging feels in modern pop mean that steady time (no matter what else is happening onstage) is often the best I can hope for. Just because it’s not THE IDEAL skill in terms of creating a groove does not mean that it is worthless.