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Advice Needed, Rhythm Issue
- Thread starter gregj8787
- Start date
Maybe part of the problem is the Ronson version doesn't actually groove all that well (IMHO).
What happens if the drummer plays and you lay out? If time is stable and it grooves, then figure out a bass line that works and let it go. Otherwise you may find the song never settles in. If the drummer is not stable and does not groove by him/her self...well at least you have identified the problem.
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I’ve played this song in the past with a good drummer and never a problem. I agree with other suggestions that you should record it and listen back with other band members and let everyone give their opinion on who is playing it correctly. After that it is up to the musician deemed to be incorrect to be able to adapt to the correct player’s version. If nothing works, then drop the song. 
I don't understand your statement about "The 2nd Eb is on 2-and)
Here is a quick sketch of the bass line of two bars from the studio version.
Somehow, for me it's in E.
The bass (pattern-based) line has some syncopation (rhythmic displacement) that could(!) "enthuse" some "rushing elements for a bass player.
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The rhythmic pattern from the Ronson version reminds me of The Strangeloves.
Anyway, to me(!) Ronson's version has enough groove.
Yes, this is basically the same beat. I feel plenty of groove in Ronson's version too. It makes you want to move.
Nobody mentioned the keyboard role playing chords as simple 8ths.
Those 8ths must match the drum/bass syncopations.
Another live version and in Eb.
Yes, it has that triplet 16th feel even in the bass line for the 16th's pickup notes.
Before you record you guys playing it, LISTEN to the Amy Winehouse version all in the same room TOGETHER as a band. Then immediately play your version and record it.
Groovy Motown- style syncopation can mask pretty hellacious tempos. DISCIPLINE is needed!
This is instructive- if you listen carefully they “lose” half a beat at the vocal break at around 1:58 because the syncopation is kind of “upset” when the band cuts out and Bruno starts to “stretch”. You can even hear the finger snapping start to drag! If the band (read:drummer) were to cue off of that there could be a train wreck. ONLY THE BASS SINGER IS KEEPING THEM ON TRACK! He (and everyone else, probably) is listening to a click. Then when the harmony vocals kick in it picks up momentum, but it’s still a struggle. They do an amazing job, but they have a common reference. I assume you are playing without a click. Tell this dude to stop listening to the singer and KEEP. THE. BEAT.
Again, listen to the Fats Domino cut. He starts the tempo with his feet and places the snare inside when the band comes in. Fats can stretch out and play with the time vocally as much as he likes, knowing the beat is there. DISCIPLINE!
On a side note, I wonder if the keys player gets less $$$ because he’s the only musician not dancing? What a band!
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Yes, we have some rhythmic issues. To me it sounds like the backup singers singing/playing the rhythmic groove pattern mess up the beat/pattern.
I've got my answer. It's so simple that only me (an aging amateur musician) could not immediately see.
Besides that "half-beat" confusion (to me it's more like a 16th displacement issue), the performance lost a whole harmonic rhythm bar at 214BPM.
Here is an excerpt of that spot just at 50% of of the original tempo.
It starts with the last four bars played by the band, then, we have only(!) three bars instead of four of I before moving to ii.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=e829af224585a840d1468c0bf41d9233
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IMHO I Want Candy grooves way harder than the Ronson version of Valerie. The drum beat is relaxed and the bass and drums are locked in on the feel. To me Valeria feels mechanical and like the bass and drums are in two different places. It's subtle but there is just bit too much rhythmic tension in the pocket for my taste...but as always, YMMV.
In my experience, this sort of problem can be caused by generational differences in the way grooves are interpreted, which is contextually influenced by the dominant musical styles we listened to growing up. For awhile I played with a super talented drummer that was 20 years younger than I, and it was very difficult for us to lock in with a fast boogie bass line because he wound the triplet too close to a true 16th. Although totally unsatisfying, I often wound up just playing in 4.
Hip Hop was a huge influence on this drummer. I actually quite enjoy Hip Hop based funk and we were able to easily lock in with that style, but certain swing styles didn't work so well, because our interpretation of the triplet was drastically different.
To me, the drummer in the Ronson version is not nailing the groove. The asymmetry of the beats is just not quite right, which is why it feels a bit mechanical too me. A younger person might think the drummer's groove sounds fabulous. A problem occurs when the bass and drums hear/feel the groove subtlety different, and of course this happens all the time in a working band even with people of the same generation. After all, we don't all grow up listening to the same music.
In order to smooth things out, one of the players has to adopt the others interpretation of the groove. I always felt Amy Winehouse was largely known for being extremely retro, so maybe an older interpretation of the groove is most appropriate. One problem is our understand of a groove is usually fairly deeply ingrained, so it can take quite a bit of effort to change, unless you are a really accomplished musician.
I don't even notice the lost time at the vocal break...maybe they don't nail it, but they sort do!
Pulling this sort of vocal break off live with a large band spread out on a big stage is actually very challenging in my experience. I believe at this point in the song, time should be coming entirely from the bass. Unfortunately (IMHO) the bass is not very effective at communicating exactly where time is.
To me the intended groove is almost identical between the Bruno and Ronson version. But in the Bruno version everyone (from the vocalist to the horn players) agrees what the groove is and it feels way more relaxed. Perhaps this version is a better reference recording.
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Let's listen (just at 50% of the original tempo) to the example of "pure" drum/bass pattern. There is NO syncopation into the second bar for the bass, but...
The drummer plays, more or less, even quarters (at 214BPM) on the hi-hat while producing triplet 16th feel.
Also, there is the same 16th triplet feel in the bass line.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...3/?temp_hash=1f5444f23671d666299bb6ff5396e7e4
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I am not saying the Ronson version is horrible, it just doesn't feel quite right, as if it has not been played in enough. Listening to this recording gives me sort of an anxious feeling.
I think the Bruno version feels more integrated and you can just sort of relax into it....Ahhhhhh!
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