Advice Needed, Rhythm Issue

[gregj8787]

I’m having an issue playing a certain song (Valerie, Amy Winehouse) with my cover band. My drummer claims I speed up the tempo and he cannot lock in with me. It’s a simple groove. I am at wits end. We play 45 other songs and haven’t had an issue like this.

-I practiced the bass rhythm with metronome, and I lock in with it
-I practiced the bass to the original song, dozens of times, and I lock in with it
-I even wrote out both the bass and drum rhythm in notation, to make sure I know it
-I tried changing my feel to play behind the beat, disaster

When the problem first arose, I tried to alter my feeling to play less aggressively. Instead of playing on the beat, I laid back and played behind the beat. Although this seemed to work in practice, it never felt right to me. It was a disaster during live performance.

-Do I try to break down the notation together with my drummer, to see where the snare beats fall?
-Do I continue to try to find the groove with my drummer using the current way I play the song, or try to change my rhythm to something different?
-Do I push back and ask drummer to re-analyze what he is playing?


It’s such a great tune, I don’t want to give up on it. Advice welcome.

thanks

 

[Febs]

Record a rehearsal. Listen back with the drummer and identify where the problem is.

 

[gregj8787]

Record a rehearsal. Listen back with the drummer and identify where the problem is.

I will do that. Any other advice?

 

[hs123]

This is a hard one for drummers to get right, (The Mark Ronson version) if played correctly you can play the root on the kick, but some drummers play snare as the hit with 'and' as the kick. I usually focus on the off beats the drummer leaves as my rhythm, because they mostly play the spaces at the right time. You play the root on the vocal phrases if that helps (W-ell, someT-imes i G-o O-ut B-y M-yS-elf (1,2 rest).

 

[gregj8787]

When I break down the notes; In the first measure; the first Eb falls on beat 1 together with the kick drum. The 2nd Eb is on 2-and, together with kick drum. The 3rd Eb is on beat 4, this time with the snare. The feeling on the recorded track is right on the beat, neither ahead nor behind.

In the 2nd measure, the snare and kick drum have a reversed feel; snare on 2 and kick on 3. Bass plays Eb on beats 2 and 3.

It works fine with my metronome and drum machine.

 

[Febs]

When I break down the notes; In the first measure; the first Eb falls on beat 1 together with the kick drum. The 2nd Eb is on 2-and, together with kick drum. The 3rd Eb is on beat 4, this time with the snare. The feeling on the recorded track is right on the beat, neither ahead nor behind.

In the 2nd measure, the snare and kick drum half a reversed feel; snare on 2 and kick on 3. Bass plays Eb on beats 2 and 3.

It works fine with my metronome and drum machine.

Yup, that's it. It's a 3:2 clave rhythm, used in tunes like Willie and the Hand Jive, I Want Candy, and a lot of Bo Diddley songs.

 

[gregj8787]

Yup, that's it. It's a 3:2 clave rhythm, used in tunes like Willie and the Hand Jive, I Want Candy, and a lot of Bo Diddley songs.

Thanks Febs. I really think I just need more time with my drummer on it.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

There are quite a few versions of that song.

Live.



Studio.



Mark Ronson ft. Amy Winehouse - Valerie

 

[mambo4]

-Do I try to break down the notation together with my drummer, to see where the snare beats fall?

I would do this if your drummer is game. Hey may not understand when you play upbeats, an overcompensate.
better yet, teach him to play the bass line while you learn his drum part.
If you can do that, it would make your groove rather bullet proof.

 

[funkinbottom]

My drummer claims I speed up the tempo and he cannot lock in with me. It’s a simple groove. I am at wits end. We play 45 other songs and haven’t had an issue like this.

If you have no issues on 45 other songs, and you can lock in with the original track and metronome, perhaps you drummer just has trouble with that groove. Try playing to a click at rehearsal.

 

[SLO Surfer]

When I break down the notes; In the first measure; the first Eb falls on beat 1 together with the kick drum. The 2nd Eb is on 2-and, together with kick drum. The 3rd Eb is on beat 4, this time with the snare. The feeling on the recorded track is right on the beat, neither ahead nor behind.

In the 2nd measure, the snare and kick drum have a reversed feel; snare on 2 and kick on 3. Bass plays Eb on beats 2 and 3.

It works fine with my metronome and drum machine.

Maybe you're both learning different versions?

 

[klyph]

I have seen very few bassists actually rush drummers in this situation. He’s just not keeping up with you. It ain’t too fast until the singer notices. Fast tempos are what the dancers want. America was BUILT on rocking beats at fast tempos! His snare needs to be a beacon that pulls everyone else along, possibly even his own (Other) limbs. He needs to LEAD, to LAY IT DOWN, not react to others, or even pay attention to them. In short, any member of the band can lack BALLS, but it spells serious trouble if it is the drummer or singer. Kick his lazy &$$, tell him to stop overthinking and buy him a Red Bull. Play him this for inspiration- pay close attention to the intro. Earl Palmer’s feet ain’t no joke...




Edit: I assume we’re talking about the Mark Ronson version, I have noticed young drummers having huge problems with these tempos in rock tunes for the last 10 or 15 years. Drummers played them all night long back in the eighties. GET OFF MY LAWN!

 

[okcrum]

The hardest things for rhythm sections to do are 1) play softly and 2) play slowly.

I would stop analyzing. Record everything.

I'd approach this tune counting half time on the one and three and play more from feel.

Play the tune at rehearsal without the drummer. Then play the tune without you. That should make it clear who's missing what.

Oh, and record everything.

EDIT: Hint - it sounds like it would be very hard to speed up on the Mark Ronson version.

 

[lfmn16]

I will do that. Any other advice?

There's not much to do until you identify the problem. It's perfectly possible that it's the drummer's fault, in which case you can't do anything to fix the problem without his input.

 

[gregj8787]

He’s just not keeping up with you. It ain’t too fast until the singer notices. Fast tempos are what the dancers want. America was BUILT on rocking beats at fast tempos! His snare needs to be a beacon that pulls everyone else along, possibly even his own limbs. He needs to LEAD, to LAY IT DOWN, not react to others.Kick his lazy &$$, tell him to stop overthinking and buy him a Red Bull. Play him this for inspiration- pay close attention to the intro. Earl Palmer’s feet ain’t no joke...




Edit: I assume we’re talking about the Mark Ronson version, I have noticed young drummers having huge problems with these tempos in rock tunes for the last 10 or 15 years. Drummers played them all night long back in the eighties. GET OFF MY LAWN!

Thanks! Yes, the Mark Ronson version it is. First time I heard it, I immediately heard that snappy snare and thought it has to the lead instrument to make this work.

 

[gregj8787]

Thanks for all the excellent replies here. Really great get this feedback. I will be recording our rehearsals going forward to figure it out.

 

[klyph]

I am in a band that plays “Walk like an Egyptian”. I count it in FAST and don’t let up. Sometimes we play it for 5 or 6 minutes if the dance floor is packed and the singer takes an extended trumpet solo (yes, really). The drummer always wants to slow it down (Young guy, of course). I am pretty sure hates me by the end... but the singer loves it and that goes double for the dancers...

 

[wes stephenson]

I’m having an issue playing a certain song (Valerie, Amy Winehouse) with my cover band. My drummer claims I speed up the tempo and he cannot lock in with me. It’s a simple groove. I am at wits end. We play 45 other songs and haven’t had an issue like this.

-I practiced the bass rhythm with metronome, and I lock in with it
-I practiced the bass to the original song, dozens of times, and I lock in with it
-I even wrote out both the bass and drum rhythm in notation, to make sure I know it
-I tried changing my feel to play behind the beat, disaster

When the problem first arose, I tried to alter my feeling to play less aggressively. Instead of playing on the beat, I laid back and played behind the beat. Although this seemed to work in practice, it never felt right to me. It was a disaster during live performance.

-Do I try to break down the notation together with my drummer, to see where the snare beats fall?
-Do I continue to try to find the groove with my drummer using the current way I play the song, or try to change my rhythm to something different?
-Do I push back and ask drummer to re-analyze what he is playing?


It’s such a great tune, I don’t want to give up on it. Advice welcome.

thanks

I think the first response is the best advice. Record the whole band or just you and the drummer. Listen back and see what’s actually happening.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I’m having an issue playing a certain song (Valerie, Amy Winehouse) with my cover band. My drummer claims I speed up the tempo and he cannot lock in with me. It’s a simple groove. I am at wits end. We play 45 other songs and haven’t had an issue like this.

-I practiced the bass rhythm with metronome, and I lock in with it
-I practiced the bass to the original song, dozens of times, and I lock in with it
-I even wrote out both the bass and drum rhythm in notation, to make sure I know it
-I tried changing my feel to play behind the beat, disaster

When the problem first arose, I tried to alter my feeling to play less aggressively. Instead of playing on the beat, I laid back and played behind the beat. Although this seemed to work in practice, it never felt right to me. It was a disaster during live performance.

-Do I try to break down the notation together with my drummer, to see where the snare beats fall?
-Do I continue to try to find the groove with my drummer using the current way I play the song, or try to change my rhythm to something different?
-Do I push back and ask drummer to re-analyze what he is playing?


It’s such a great tune, I don’t want to give up on it. Advice welcome.

thanks

Hahahaha, dude. On the real, not a drummer bash, I almost guarantee that your drummer is slowing down. Not you speeding up.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

A lot of drummers like to have a slightly shuffled 16th feeling on Valerie. Maybe that's what makes him feel you are rushing.