Advice Needed, Rhythm Issue

[Wasnex]

Huh? Who feels the need to avail themselves of an “honest broker” without introspection, comeuppance or applied force (or some combination of those things)? Nobody, that’s who. The OP didn’t force or shame this drummer into using a click (or even suggest it!) and didn’t use one himself. That leaves introspection on the drummer’s part, as the sole reason for the change.

Does his employ of this make him a BETTER DRUMMER? Most likely NOT. If that is your point, we can certainly agree....He won’t actually BE a better drummer until he can keep time without the crutch. But he came to the realization that he was LAME on his own (again, assuming a teacher didn’t point it out).Whether getting “better” means compensating mentally for what the bass is doing, learning different feels, practicing TM, going deaf, etc., is immaterial. Maybe he will need to use the click forever. (ugh...)

Give this drummer some credit (if not gigs) and stop harshing my buzz, man...

Small, provisional, victories matter- none more in this forum than a bar filled (hell, even half-filled) with dancing people...

You totally misunderstood my point.

 

[Wasnex]

This kind of reinforces my point about tuning out the singer and keeping time. Many drummers focus on other things besides the bass. Many teachers probably instruct their charges to “listen carefully to the singer” - thereby paving the road to hell!

I play with fill in drummers, often 20+ years younger, all the time. The popularity of hip hop, and lack of a variety of swinging feels in modern pop mean that steady time (no matter what else is happening onstage) is often the best I can hope for. Just because it’s not THE IDEAL skill in terms of creating a groove does not mean that it is worthless.

Most people don't have the slightest idea how complicated it is to play a tight groove, but that is not meant as an excuse. By learning more about the problem, you are better equipped to find a solution.

 

[klyph]

You totally misunderstood my point.

Fair enough. I’m sure we agree plenty about various aspects here, and have exhausted the topic. Have a nice day.

 

[klyph]

My point is most people don't have the slightest idea how complicated it is to play a tight groove, but that is not meant as an excuse. By learning more about the problem, you are better equipped to find a solution.

Very true. I guess the real problem is changing styles, which leave some really enjoyable modes of playing completely unknown to active musicians, but still episodically relevant. I wish I knew an alto player who sounded like Earl Bostic, and if one existed, he would work quite a bit. But that style has passed, never to be heard again. I could cite many other examples, but what’s the point? So it goes...

 

[Joe Nerve]

Wondering if you found a solution yet... didn't read the entire thread.

I love playing this song. Its simple, its fun, its got a great groove, and its a great song. I think its worth it to figure out whats going on, and agree with what someone said early on. Record it, and then listen with both you and the drummer. Its not a difficult groove to get down, so one of you is doing something weird . And as others have said, its important you're both learning the same version (I'm assuming you are).

The only thing I'd like to add is that sometimes it really is our job to just accept whatever the drummer is doing, and lock in with that. Even when its wrong. And if we struggle with that, then work at it. A good way to do that is to take any beat maker, and practice the song to several different rhythms. The goal is to make the notes lock, no matter what. The more we do that, the more intuitive it becomes.

It would of course be super helpful also if you posted a recording for us to hear. We could be more objective than either of you, and possibly pinpoint the issue a lot more quickly. Save some argument time, also .

 

[Wasnex]

Wondering if you found a solution yet... didn't read the entire thread.

I love playing this song. Its simple, its fun, its got a great groove, and its a great song. I think its worth it to figure out whats going on, and agree with what someone said early on. Record it, and then listen with both you and the drummer. Its not a difficult groove to get down, so one of you is doing something weird . And as others have said, its important you're both learning the same version (I'm assuming you are).

The only thing I'd like to add is that sometimes it really is our job to just accept whatever the drummer is doing, and lock in with that. Even when its wrong. And if we struggle with that, then work at it. A good way to do that is to take any beat maker, and practice the song to several different rhythms. The goal is to make the notes lock, no matter what. The more we do that, the more intuitive it becomes.

It would of course be super helpful also if you posted a recording for us to hear. We could be more objective than either of you, and possibly pinpoint the issue a lot more quickly. Save some argument time, also .

Here's the summary as far as I see it:
Drummer took it on himself to use a click during the next performance and everything turned up peaches and cream. Some of us think the drummer and bassist have a different interpretation of the groove that is causing problems. Of course this is just a theory, but the drummer may be using a bit of a swing feel, while the bass is playing it more punk. So from the drummers perceptions, the bass is pushing the beat. Just the normal drama

 

[SBassman]

Wow. This story ends interesting.

Being a drummer and a bass player, I would Love to hear rehearsal audio demonstrating the problem, although it sounds like the drummer took some responsibility.

I'll say one thing - bad time or lack of groove is a challenge with people I play with - too frequently. I have met so many people in my life who knew something about the fretboard - but never learned Anything about good time and a great groove.

I have to the conclusion that every musician, as well as every dancer, should learn some drumming.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So much to say but, knowing the "reactionary" (emotionally-explosive) tendencies at TB, let me be succinct.
1. I don't care (A) what this/that musician does at home, (B) how this/that musician exercises, (C) uses or not the metronome, etc...
my requirement is that this/that musician/singer must be able to perform with a click if needed without ISSUES!!!
2. I don't recommend to record a bass line playing just along with the click without hearing/knowing a drum pattern, but if it is needed for this/that reason - let it be without any issues.
3. The click is NOT MUSIC(!); therefore, the bass player must articulate the bass line along with the rhythmic section - the drums, rhythm guitar, keys, etc... (If those instruments participate).
One must match the bass line to the drums and not to some click in the headphones, unless it was some interesting arranger's idea.
4. The instrument tone/sound is part of MOOD, CHARACTER of the song, part of Music.

 

[Wasnex]

So much to say but, knowing the "reactionary" (emotionally-explosive) tendencies at TB, let me be succinct.
1. I don't care (A) what this/that musician does at home, (B) how this/that musician exercises, (C) uses or not the metronome, etc...
my requirement is that this/that musician/singer must be able to perform with a click if needed without ISSUES!!!
2. I don't recommend to record a bass line playing just along with the click without hearing/knowing a drum pattern, but if it is needed for this/that reason - let it be without any issues.
3. The click is NOT MUSIC(!); therefore, the bass player must articulate the bass line along with the rhythmic section - the drums, rhythm guitar, keys, etc... (If those instruments participate).
One must match the bass line to the drums and not to some click in the headphones, unless it was some interesting arranger's idea.
4. The instrument tone/sound is part of MOOD, CHARACTER of the song, part of Music.

Yep...it's definitely complicated.

 

[mstillman]

Didn't read all, but has anyone suggested trying "Faith" by George Michael to get the drummer in the "Valerie" mood?

 

[gregj8787]

Wondering if you found a solution yet... didn't read the entire thread.

I love playing this song. Its simple, its fun, its got a great groove, and its a great song. I think its worth it to figure out whats going on, and agree with what someone said early on. Record it, and then listen with both you and the drummer. Its not a difficult groove to get down, so one of you is doing something weird . And as others have said, its important you're both learning the same version (I'm assuming you are).

The only thing I'd like to add is that sometimes it really is our job to just accept whatever the drummer is doing, and lock in with that. Even when its wrong. And if we struggle with that, then work at it. A good way to do that is to take any beat maker, and practice the song to several different rhythms. The goal is to make the notes lock, no matter what. The more we do that, the more intuitive it becomes.

It would of course be super helpful also if you posted a recording for us to hear. We could be more objective than either of you, and possibly pinpoint the issue a lot more quickly. Save some argument time, also .

Hi Joe,
Thanks. Yes we found a solution. I posted earlier that my drummer added both a click and the original full drum kit into his in-ear mix, and it worked.

We’re not out if the woods yet. It worked so far at 1 gig.

As far as my role, I never got defensive about it, because I might have been at fault. We’ve been gigging out, doing 3 sets of dance songs for a year now, and haven’t really had rhythm issues, outside this.
I will definitely be recording our rehearsal of this going forward.

Thanks all for the great conversation in this thread.

Greg

 

[gregj8787]

Didn't read all, but has anyone suggested trying "Faith" by George Michael to get the drummer in the "Valerie" mood?

It’s funny, we also play Faith, with great crowd response. It’s a very similar feel on bass. We also do American Girl and Footloose. Their drum patterns are also similar.

 

[bcbassman]

I don't know where this discussion ended up but be aware that it may not be either the bassist or the drummer that's rushing but the guitarist. With a tight rhythm part like that he controls the chord changes and often a guitarist can rush the riff to throw off others. Just sayin... recording the band is a good idea.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The rhythmic tension is created by a slight displacement in time between where you are placing the beat and where the drummer is placing it. Distance is significant because it takes time for sound to travel the distance. So if you change where you are standing in relation to the drum set, it changes your perception of the feel. Now the distance is normally so short that it shouldn't matter, but you also need to consider that the sound needs to travel the distance, and you need time to react to it, and then your sound needs to travel back to the drummer. So there are multiple mechanisms going on that can stretch out the delay where it starts bordering on perceptible.

Let's take your very detailed description of "groove" and try to apply it to the following rendition.

 

[SBassman]

Sure would have been super interesting and informative for all to listen to audio of the situation.

 

[vindibona1]

I don't understand your statement about "The 2nd Eb is on 2-and)

Here is a quick sketch of the bass line of two bars from the studio version.
Somehow, for me it's in E.
The bass (pattern-based) line has some syncopation (rhythmic displacement) that could(!) "enthuse" some "rushing elements for a bass player.
View attachment 3460345

Thanks for the transcription. I wasn't familiar with this tune until now, but I've printed it out as it's a great lick to practice.

@gregj8787 Bass rhythms can be complicated because of the way notes are tied and rhythms get offset. That kind of stuff can be my Achille's heel too. If the drummer says he's not "locking in with you", I think you have to first verify that HE is not the problem and that his rhythm/tempo is stable. Assuming that that's the case, then I see two landmines in this rhythm [Examining the first two measures of Whosedtoplay's transcription]: The 16th note into the third beat- and the tie into the dotted 8th, then the tie into the second beat in the dotted 8th/16th rhythm in the first two beats of the second measure. I find mentally keeping accurate pulse on this stuff challenging.

What I have to do to work through something like this might be two-fold. 1) For the sake of solid rhythm, for the moment, omit the 16th "pickup" into M1 b3 so that beat 3 is solid on time. 2) For the moment, drop the ties and play the rhythms as if there were no ties until you get that down. Then add back in those two elements. The focus/landing points are M1 b3 and M2 b2. Once you get the simplified rhythm solid then you can then trick yourself into adding the ties and 16th pickups into the landing points.

Edit: I tried playing this myself. It's more challenging on bass than it would be on keyboard or other fixed position instruments. I'm finding that in M2 mentally treating the last three 8ths of that bar as pickups into M3 and the same into M4 helps make sure that beat 1 of the bars is solid in my head. I'm trying that with and without emphasis on the three "pickup" notes.