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Advice on cutting through mix

H

hiddenline

May 22, 2009
8
0
San Francisco
#1
I had my first gig with a new band the other day (!) and had various problems hearing myself on stage. Am hoping for some helpful advice. Am not exactly sure how I sounded to audience but was told it seemed OK, just not very loud at times. I have a recording that came from sound board but it's whacky and my bass sounds like it's squawking or farting. I didn't hear that but that could be how it was EQd ( direct out from amp to board/PA to digital recorder).

Am playing through my first real rig and this was the first time in a live setting other than at practices. It's a new GK MB2-500 (thankfully a fixed one w/o any RF or heat problems) played through an Avatar Neo 210 cab. My bass is a Fender Deluxe Jazz (Am). The band has two guitarists and drummer and we all play on the loud side.

Question is, can my 8ohm 210 cab be enough for the mix in small clubs or do I need to add another cab or replace it? I was thinking of trying a single 12".

Secondly, am still getting used to this bass, bought it used a few months ago. I keep thinking it's not giving me a deep/bright enough sound. Am more used to p bass or passive jazz bass. It's recently been setup and checks out ok. The pups are noiseless but not very punchy.

Thanks, I appreciate any advice.
 
#2
hiddenline said:
The band has two guitarists and drummer and we all play on the loud side.
Question is, can my 8ohm 210 cab be enough?
Click to expand...

Nope. You definitely could realize a huge benefit from adding a second 8 ohm cab.

Aside from that, whenever you find yourself not having the power to push through by brute force, you have to sculpt your sound for efficiency instead of tone. That means cut your lows and boost your mids, and possibly even use a compressor. All three of those actions will increase your relative audibility when you have only a limited amount of power and speakers.
 
#9
Don't be suprised with your Jazz if you don't end up rolling the highs mostly off, boosting the mids, and running the lows flat. Esp if you use bright strings. That'll start getting you to a cutting growl.

I bet you're also squashing out your headroom with the active bass. Go back to square one on your eq and tone shaping settings. Make sure you're cutting (if you must) more than boosting (if you must). Watch any (pre) gain settings, and make sure you're not trying to make up for lack of power with too hot of a pre signal.
 
#10
You can cut through with that or most amps. It's about EQ. Often a good "cutting" EQ will not sound great soloed. Cutting is always (almost) better than boosting. But you will probably have to boost your mids.
 
#11
Thanks all for these ideas. I've been playing through a borrowed Ampeg 410 in practice and it sounded much better. Will look into using a cab like that more. Would a 212 or a single 15 along with 210 be as good as a 410?

oh, and i keep the tweeter on the 210 turned way down (not totally off cuz i thought it was bad to do that on some cabs.

Haven't tried a compressor yet, but will try to check it out.

I'm still experimenting with tone shaping from my bass. I use chrome round wound strings, heavier gauge. Have found that it sounds really flat/hollow unless i boost the lows and mids on the bass. I leave the treble flat and front pick up favored. Don't like having a hollow sound. Would love to get this bass to growl.

Will try the eq settings mentioned --thanks!
 
#12
A. Don't attempt to "cut through". That's just silly. If you're cutting through the mix, and the guitars are cutting through, and the drums & cymbals are cutting through, and the horns, etc. are all cutting through, where the heck is a MIX?!?!??

B. Ignore your solo sound when deciding on EQ. You'll have to find a way to EQ your rig so that it fits in with what everyone else is doing. That's gotta be a band effort. Lots fo guitarists, especially are so very precious about their sound, and it can really clutter up the low mids where the bass lives.

C. Ignore folks who tell you silly things like "turn off your tweeter because it's BASS, no TREBLE". If all you have are the fundementals, you'll be lost and have a useless mix. That's becasue the overtones that make your bass sound like an electric bass instead of a dead kick drum thump, are in the mids and highs.

D. Don't use so much lows that it robs the power of your amp and gets lost in the clutter with the kick drum and the low toms.

E. Learn to use the mids to give your sound character and shape. Those mids are mucy more important than the lows and highs, but you gotta be careful so they don't become nasal. Start with your EQ as flat as you can get it, and LISTEN to what's going on around you. Find the frequencies that you can slot into to keep your bass in the mix. Again, this HAS to be a cooperative group effort!!!

John
 
#13
hiddenline said:
...I'm still experimenting with tone shaping from my bass. I use chrome round wound strings, heavier gauge. Have found that it sounds really flat/hollow unless i boost the lows and mids on the bass. I leave the treble flat and front pick up favored. Don't like having a hollow sound. Would love to get this bass to growl.

Will try the eq settings mentioned --thanks!
Click to expand...

Even out the pickups. I only go off the middle detent when I want a hollow or kinda phasey sound (and I never touch that playing live). The juicy sound comes from both of them balancing each other.

And try playing closer to the bridge for more growl, more out in the middle to tame that. My active Jazzes respond almost like a tube amp: if I play nice, they play nice--if I play rough, they start to growl back.
 
#14
...200-250 hz is your friend.

:)

Guitars tend to be around 300 hz and up, bass drum is typically 100-120 hz and down.

There's a huge hole that you can "slot" yourself into, and as long as you don't have either a) a keyboard player that overuses his left hand, or b) a guitarist that plays with too much low end, you will not "cut through" as much as stake out your sonic space in an area there is no competing information, sonically.

That, added to move a bit more air (410 vs. 210, 15's and 12's [in my opinion] will add more depth, but not more mids, which are what you really are looking for) and don't be afraid of the RIGHT AMOUNT of high end (don't get clacky, just enough brightness to be clear), and you should be right there.
 
#15
I'd say add a 15 inch cab to your rig. I know it sounds counterintuitive when people are saying "add more mids", but reinforcing the low-end with a bigger speaker actually does pull out the mids and gives you more presence. Also just the very presence of a second cabinet adds a lot both to your volume but also your ability to be heard in general.

Apart from that - I EQ flat with a slight boost to my mids, and a healthy application of my boost / OD pedals that seems to put me just in the right spot.
 
#16
JTE said:
A. Don't attempt to "cut through". That's just silly. If you're cutting through the mix, and the guitars are cutting through, and the drums & cymbals are cutting through, and the horns, etc. are all cutting through, where the heck is a MIX?!?!??

B. Ignore your solo sound when deciding on EQ. You'll have to find a way to EQ your rig so that it fits in with what everyone else is doing. That's gotta be a band effort. Lots fo guitarists, especially are so very precious about their sound, and it can really clutter up the low mids where the bass lives.

C. Ignore folks who tell you silly things like "turn off your tweeter because it's BASS, no TREBLE". If all you have are the fundementals, you'll be lost and have a useless mix. That's becasue the overtones that make your bass sound like an electric bass instead of a dead kick drum thump, are in the mids and highs.

D. Don't use so much lows that it robs the power of your amp and gets lost in the clutter with the kick drum and the low toms.

E. Learn to use the mids to give your sound character and shape. Those mids are mucy more important than the lows and highs, but you gotta be careful so they don't become nasal. Start with your EQ as flat as you can get it, and LISTEN to what's going on around you. Find the frequencies that you can slot into to keep your bass in the mix. Again, this HAS to be a cooperative group effort!!!

John
Click to expand...

Man this guy is leading you in the right direction. I wouldn't spend any money just yet. This has to be a group effort. More than likely your fellow band mates are too loud. I am very hesitant to tell anyone that they need more wattage or speakers as most every band I play in or go see has volume issues. Too loud. They need to make space for you to play in either EQ wise or volume wise or both. If you go out and buy a bigger rig guess what they will likely do? Look for their volume knob and heavy sticks. I can be an endless cycle. Have the discussion with them now. If you can’t work with them find some others to play with or put some ear plugs in and don’t worry about it. Don’t plan on the band sounding good however.

If you must buy another cab why not go for a second cab to match what you have? It will be easier to EQ and it will be flexible and portable. If you can’t hear yourself with 500W and four 10s you have major volume issues.
 

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