Double Bass After 29 years....

[MichelD]

I have been playing upright bass for 29 years now.

I've never had a lesson and play out of tune, usually flat because I don't stretch my short fingers enough.

I don't have a magical ear either so I need all the help I can get.

I recently took my tuner and made marks on the edge of the fingerboard (for the umpteenth time) to try to teach myself how to play notes in the right place.

Also, I unearthed my copy of Chuck Sher's "improvisors bass method and am back at page 14 going over all the major and relative natural minor scales again. Then it is on to basic trads again.

He teaches fingerings too, so that is a benefit.

I'm not a jazz player or an improvisor so why am I doing this? Why am I on this page?

I play country music, folk music, western swing, that kind of thing.

Well, I play with a songwriter/playwright who uses a lot of jazz chords and progressions in his compositions so I need to be able to play chords not normally used in country or folk, such as m7b5 or augmented chords.

 

[Steven Ayres]

I don't have a magical ear ....

This is where you probably need the most work. There's nothing 'magical' about hearing whether a given note is flat or sharp in context, but it does require attention and practice to fine-tune the ear. No fingerboard position marker can give you correct intonation. You have to listen.

For that you also have to be able to hear the tone, and given the musical genres you list I have to wonder whether you might be going for the thumpy sound, which is harder to hear. Applying more muscle with the right arm can help with that.

 

[MichelD]

This is where you probably need the most work. There's nothing 'magical' about hearing whether a given note is flat or sharp in context, but it does require attention and practice to fine-tune the ear. No fingerboard position marker can give you correct intonation. You have to listen.

For that you also have to be able to hear the tone, and given the musical genres you list I have to wonder whether you might be going for the thumpy sound, which is harder to hear. Applying more muscle with the right arm can help with that.

Thanks, I do listen too. I have accompanied singers, played in a western swing band and several country groups, without relying on markers, or receiving complaints I might add, but for my own education I wanted to go back to basics to improve my intonation.

 

[PauFerro]

I check my intonation with riffs that I have created that have me playing a note that requires me to put my finger on the fingerboard, and then hitting an open string of the same intonation. For example, say "Buh Duh Cuh Puh" as eighth notes. The Buh note is one I supply the intonation for, the second one (Duh) is the open string that has the accurate intonation, the "Cuh" is my corrected note for which I supply intonation, and the Puh is the open string again. I use that as a riff in some of my solos as a check.

I also use open strings as much as possible. I find my upright playing is therefore much different than my electric playing -- and I see the fingerboard differently than I do on electric as a result.

Also, for Eb, I have a rif in Jody Grind, for example that requires me to play Eb, Bb and then a high Eb on the g string. The first Eb, on the D string, I play in the first position on the D string. This is generally in tune. I then do Bb on the D string and Eb on the G string. The first note -- the Eb on the D string, gives me a refernce point to determine if I hit the subsequent Bb and Eb.

I find that helps me orient myself. But only when the speed of the passage allows it.

 

[damonsmith]

Get a cheap German bow and practice scales.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Once you've gotten a bow Ray Brown's Bass Method shows a very simple way to practice scales through intervallic patterns. Practicing scales like this makes the arpeggios you also need to practice easier to see, feel and hear.

 

[damonsmith]

Once you've gotten a bow Ray Brown's Bass Method shows a very simple way to practice scales through intervallic patterns. Practicing scales like this makes the arpeggios you also need to practice easier to see, feel and hear.

Not bad book but if we are easing into self-teaching (better to get a teacher) Simandl book 1 is best for this situation. Ray worked out of Simandl.

 

[MichelD]

Not bad book but if we are easing into self-teaching (better to get a teacher) Simandl book 1 is best for this situation. Ray worked out of Simandl.

OP here.
At 64 I'm probably past getting a teacher. I play for my own amusement and to accompany my songwriter friend or at the odd country jam. I've always had a really lousy ear for hearing changes and picking up tunes. I just about need a chord chart for everything beyond 3 chords. I even have a hard time when someone at a jam throws in a II V change.

I'm just interested in playing in tune.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, it's your life, but at 64 (I'm 62) I would ask if you wouldn't feel like whatever time you have left is better spent doing the work under the supervision of somebody who's been through it all before and has a well thought out pedagogical approach or sort of flailing about on your own. Or accessing some methodology (books, videos, youtube, skype) that only can present the material in one way or can't provide actual, real-time, visceral, physical instruction (i.e. take the instrument out of your hands or physically adjust your stance, posture, etc.)

Because there's no way around it, hearing with any kind of clarity and having the wherewithal to get what you're hearing out into the air with any kind of ease and alacrity is WORK. And lots of it. Your choice is - do you want to approach that landscape without a guide or with one? And yes, as they say, not all who wander are lost. But it sounds like you have a specific place you want to get to.

Now some of the younger generation may not see much difference, but you and I know that there is a significant difference between 55 and 64, certainly more so than, say, 20 and 29. But consider Rufus Reid; he was at a very high point in his career, both in performance AND education, when he began studying with someone. AGAIN, this wasn't the first teacher he had.

And remember what Pablo Casals said, when asked why he, at 90, continued to practice on a regular basis... "Because I think I'm getting somewhere..."

 

[Tom Lane]

OP here.
At 64 I'm probably past getting a teacher. I play for my own amusement and to accompany my songwriter friend or at the odd country jam. I've always had a really lousy ear for hearing changes and picking up tunes. I just about need a chord chart for everything beyond 3 chords. I even have a hard time when someone at a jam throws in a II V change.

I'm just interested in playing in tune.

Personally, I find it tough to advise you because your goal "to play in tune" is both very specific but touches on musicianship generally. But, I gave your question some thought. First, I completely agree with Ed's advice, that your best chance of progressing at a pace that you'll be happy with, with the least effort and fewest false starts, is to see a competent teacher in person. Aside from that, if you're determined not to follow Ed's advice, then here are a few suggestions for learning to play in tune better:
1) First half of Simandl book 1 - mostly quarter notes below the octave, it teaches you how to shift in tune. I typed the etudes into Finale and played along with it and moved through it in less than 6 months that way. Blew my teacher away because every week I usually nailed it. He thought I was talented until I told him what I was doing! Best if you use a bow but not absolutely necessary, just more difficult to hear clearly.
2) Scale practice - start with Major scales, one octave. Again it's best to have a computer accompany you, around 60 bpm to start, arco, then expand. Two octaves, modes, start high then descend, start low, ascend, start in the middle, all 4 Minor scales - Natural, Dorian, Melodic, and Harmonic.
3) Arpeggio practice - just like scale practice
4) Melody practice - best with the bow, play melodies to tunes you know checking your intonation. This helps you learn many different ways to finger the same notes.

As you gain proficiency, you can skip the computer accompaniment and use open strings to check your intonation, but first, IMO, you have to train your ear to pre-hear the pitch you're aiming for.

This won't help you too much with playing jazz chords but will likely let you know when you're playing a "bad" note. That's mostly a theory exploration, IME.

Hope that helps and good luck.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Not bad book but if we are easing into self-teaching (better to get a teacher) Simandl book 1 is best for this situation. Ray worked out of Simandl.

Ray's method of playing scales through intervals lends itself well to approaching chord changes which may kill more birds for the OP. We could debate this til the cows come home but what I think everyone agrees on is a teacher is his best first course of action.

 

[damonsmith]

Best if you use a bow but not absolutely necessary, just more difficult to hear clearly.

It is waste of time not to use the bow. The only thing worse than not practicing is practicing pizz-only - if you don't practice at least you know you didn't get anything done.
Any advice that says not to use the bow is not responsible. The few people who do get by without the bow are not those who ask for advice, they are driven at a different level. If you were one of the very few who could get by without the bow you'd be there after 29 years. It doesn't sound like you have 29 more years to experiment with.

 

[MichelD]

OP here.

I'm a very casual hobbyist. All that advice is great. I assume you folks are at a very different level of skill, musical education, dedication and interest than me.

Post #10 says

"4) Melody practice - best with the bow, play melodies to tunes you know checking your intonation. This helps you learn many different ways to finger the same notes."

I can't hear my way through "Happy Birthday" or "Mary had a little lamb."

I was talked into buying a bad bow many years ago and to be honest I don't even know where it is.

By the way, Jeff Bonny, of post #11, I'm in Vancouver too.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, Michel, obviously SOMETHING is going on that is making you question your approach. Otherwise, why bother? You're already playing at a "skill level" for a "casual hobbyist", and yet here you are asking about how to push past that.

I don't know about the other guys, but all I'm saying is that you're not going to change your skill level without putting in some work AND that work will go easier and faster if you have a good teacher. If you don't want easier and faster, then you don't need to worry about a teacher. But a year down the road, check back in with us and let us know how that worked out.

 

[Tom Lane]

OP here.

I'm a very casual hobbyist. All that advice is great. I assume you folks are at a very different level of skill, musical education, dedication and interest than me.

Post #10 says

"4) Melody practice - best with the bow, play melodies to tunes you know checking your intonation. This helps you learn many different ways to finger the same notes."

I can't hear my way through "Happy Birthday" or "Mary had a little lamb."

I was talked into buying a bad bow many years ago and to be honest I don't even know where it is.

By the way, Jeff Bonny, of post #11, I'm in Vancouver too.

Huh, so you ARE a challenge. That's okay. I don't know Lynn Seaton very well but the little time I've had with him I learned to admire his attitude about teaching, which is something along the lines that he considers it a personal challenge to try to make everyone he teaches sound better when they leave him, after each interaction. Tall order, but, he's a great teacher and a great player. If you don't know him, Google him.

Okay, so no teacher, no bow, no scales, no melodies, no Simandl, no Brown... that's a lot of constraints, but if you want to make some progress towards playing more in tune, would you try this?

Get a cheap piano keyboard if you don't already have one. You can get one for around $100, half that if you're willing to chance Ebay. Position the keyboard and your bass near one another and play your bass lines, slowly. Play a note on the bass, sing the pitch, then strike that pitch on the keyboard, do you hear beating? Are they in tune? If not, adjust your finger and try again. As a general rule, striking a note on the piano and trying to sing that pitch will help you intonate better because it helps teach your mind's ear the pitches you're trying for. A few minutes a day ought to help with your intonation.

If that's difficult at first, try open strings and get an electronic bass tuner - $15 - to help you see when the bass and the piano are in tune. Practice making the bass out of tune and bringing it back into tune so you can learn to hear what "in tune" sounds like. If it doesn't seem to help, consider visiting an audiologist because you may be experiencing some hearing loss that's making you hear flat. If that's the case, that's a different issue. One last thing, it's advised to tune "up" into the pitch rather than down. That's usually a mechanical thing that the string can stretch or the tuning gear can slip once you start pulling on the string if you tune "down" to the pitch.

Is that more what you're looking for? Inexpensive, not a lot of work, something you can do yourself.

 

[MichelD]

Huh, so you ARE a challenge. That's okay. I don't know Lynn Seaton very well but the little time I've had with him I learned to admire his attitude about teaching, which is something along the lines that he considers it a personal challenge to try to make everyone he teaches sound better when they leave him, after each interaction. Tall order, but, he's a great teacher and a great player. If you don't know him, Google him.

Okay, so no teacher, no bow, no scales, no melodies, no Simandl, no Brown... that's a lot of constraints, but if you want to make some progress towards playing more in tune, would you try this?

Get a cheap piano keyboard if you don't already have one. You can get one for around $100, half that if you're willing to chance Ebay. Position the keyboard and your bass near one another and play your bass lines, slowly. Play a note on the bass, sing the pitch, then strike that pitch on the keyboard, do you hear beating? Are they in tune? If not, adjust your finger and try again. As a general rule, striking a note on the piano and trying to sing that pitch will help you intonate better because it helps teach your mind's ear the pitches you're trying for. A few minutes a day ought to help with your intonation.

If that's difficult at first, try open strings and get an electronic bass tuner - $15 - to help you see when the bass and the piano are in tune. Practice making the bass out of tune and bringing it back into tune so you can learn to hear what "in tune" sounds like. If it doesn't seem to help, consider visiting an audiologist because you may be experiencing some hearing loss that's making you hear flat. If that's the case, that's a different issue. One last thing, it's advised to tune "up" into the pitch rather than down. That's usually a mechanical thing that the string can stretch or the tuning gear can slip once you start pulling on the string if you tune "down" to the pitch.

Is that more what you're looking for? Inexpensive, not a lot of work, something you can do yourself.

Oh, don't get me wrong.

I have looked up the Simandl fingering and use that fingering.

I practice scales and arpeggios all the time. I admit though, that I don't often try to explore higher than one octave.

I've had some kind of electric tuner for the last 40 years.

 

[damonsmith]

Tom, you are great contributor but none of this good or lasting advice. As far as advice in order:
1. a Get a teacher.
1. b even Skype/Google Hang Outs teacher.
2. Get a basic German bow and saw through scales (can be had for $40 on Ebay. Carbon fiber is fine)
3. Keep doing what you are doing and hope for the best.

These three things are grounded in reality. Anything less would have worked by now for you.

Huh, so you ARE a challenge. That's okay. I don't know Lynn Seaton very well but the little time I've had with him I learned to admire his attitude about teaching, which is something along the lines that he considers it a personal challenge to try to make everyone he teaches sound better when they leave him, after each interaction. Tall order, but, he's a great teacher and a great player. If you don't know him, Google him.

Okay, so no teacher, no bow, no scales, no melodies, no Simandl, no Brown... that's a lot of constraints, but if you want to make some progress towards playing more in tune, would you try this?

Get a cheap piano keyboard if you don't already have one. You can get one for around $100, half that if you're willing to chance Ebay. Position the keyboard and your bass near one another and play your bass lines, slowly. Play a note on the bass, sing the pitch, then strike that pitch on the keyboard, do you hear beating? Are they in tune? If not, adjust your finger and try again. As a general rule, striking a note on the piano and trying to sing that pitch will help you intonate better because it helps teach your mind's ear the pitches you're trying for. A few minutes a day ought to help with your intonation.

If that's difficult at first, try open strings and get an electronic bass tuner - $15 - to help you see when the bass and the piano are in tune. Practice making the bass out of tune and bringing it back into tune so you can learn to hear what "in tune" sounds like. If it doesn't seem to help, consider visiting an audiologist because you may be experiencing some hearing loss that's making you hear flat. If that's the case, that's a different issue. One last thing, it's advised to tune "up" into the pitch rather than down. That's usually a mechanical thing that the string can stretch or the tuning gear can slip once you start pulling on the string if you tune "down" to the pitch.

Is that more what you're looking for? Inexpensive, not a lot of work, something you can do yourself.

 

[MichelD]

Dug my bow out. Thank you.

 

[Biggbass]

OP here.
At 64 I'm probably past getting a teacher.

I would disagree with that notion. My sister, who is now 68, has been playing piano since age 7 and has always played only classical music. She still has a teacher. The learning process never stops.

 

[Tom Lane]

Tom, you are great contributor but none of this good or lasting advice. As far as advice in order:
1. a Get a teacher.
1. b even Skype/Google Hang Outs teacher.
2. Get a basic German bow and saw through scales (can be had for $40 on Ebay. Carbon fiber is fine)
3. Keep doing what you are doing and hope for the best.

These three things are grounded in reality. Anything less would have worked by now for you.

I don't, for the most part, disagree with you. Your numbered items are clearly the most clear cut advice for most students, but, this guy has suggested that he's not interested in spending much time or effort to improve... so, if that's the case and you just repeat the original advice, how is that moving the conversation along? Rather, bend further and suggest a less effective curriculum to someone who's not willing.
If he's not willing to follow the advice thus far... what I posted is the best I got, getting very creative, and expecting poor improvement. At least, for the OP, it'd be some improvement. Versus, ignoring our advice and continuing as he has.
Some improvement is better for everyone than no improvement.