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Double Bass Against my better judgment...

Mine is the hybrid, so it started as the other bass in question in this thread! I do love the bass, it is absolutely great for what it is. My old European bass is just a much more rich and better instrument.
I am also a big fan of Shen. They leveled the playing field and really made it is easier to get started on a decent instrument.

If you are referring to your Chadwick, I repaired one recently and was very impressed by its tone and solid construction. It began a lowly Shen 80 but even with a big hole in the back and a lot of extra bracing and other stuff inside, still sounded pretty good. And it was just a ply.

I’m a big supporter of Shen and am most familiar with the 3/4 willow flatback SB200. They sound very good when new, improve after some playing and are well made.
 
If you have wisdom to share, I would love to read it. Except for this... IMO, there is, in some quarters, a certain amount of anti-laminate bias here on TB. Please save it for someone else. Like its hybrid cousin, the 88 is a great-sounding bass.

Thanks in advance.


Your ears are not wrong. you hear what you hear, right?

I've been around the laminate world a few times over - both basses, and archtop guitars. I have the same conclusion of each. The durability is their biggest selling point, for sure.

laminates, especially quality laminates, I have never gotten the impression that they sound "bad." There is a certain quality to the sound I've liked - again, both archtop guitars like a godin kingpin, as well as my shen SB80 i've had since 2006. Hard to describe the sound, but i'll stick with dark/warm. boomy in a good way.

Where laminates definitely struggle is acoustic volume. There is no competition. my carved bass (particularly full sounding) can drown out my laminate both arco and pizz with minimal effort.

I don't claim to be an expert. but i'm certainly qualified in the sense that 1. I've been a professional musician for a while, and 2. i've bought/sold/collected/obsessed over gear the whole time.

here is my concluding point - why is there an anti-laminate bias?

Enthusiast cultures often have a a component of a purist mindset. I suppose what I mean is you get caught up in your own exacting standards that you loose touch with regular people. A scotch whisky enthusiast may be the worst person to ask "hey my friend is a scotch drinker what should I get him for christmas?" - they'll go on and on about a limited edition bottling, a cask strength, such-and-such, only 100 bottles made, waiting lists, etc etc... the thought of buying something that most stores keep in stock (that tastes really good!!) is not going to cross their mind.

There is absolutely no problem with laminates. Sure, they won't be as loud. I'd even hesitate to say they objectively don't sound as good - they happen to not have that particularly complex woody character that classical players are willing to spend for. But a properly adjusted one can have a really lovely tone, for jazz, orchestra, solo, whatever.

The same is true on the other side - there's a reason if you're auditioning for the NY phil, you'd like a top-tier carved bass. Because that sound is magnificent. But, if your a local guy who can really play, and you bow your laminate, it's going to be fine with everyone except perhaps the violin shop trying to tell you why you "need" a carved bass to play with a bow.
 
...Where laminates definitely struggle is acoustic volume. There is no competition. my carved bass (particularly full sounding) can drown out my laminate both arco and pizz with minimal effort...

I've read this numerous times. It's utterly at odds with my experiences. I've owned two laminates, a fully-carved bass and a hybrid. I've played many more basses -- carved and laminated. Wilfers, Strunals, Knillings, Shens, Christophers, Eastmans, Juzeks, a Thompson, a Hachez and others. I've found laminates to consistently be louder: sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Always by a noticeable degree.

I'm not disputing your experiences. I'm sure you're accurately reporting what you've found. And you're not the only one to make that observation. It's just odd that my experiences have been 180 degrees opposed.
 
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Where laminates definitely struggle is acoustic volume. There is no competition. my carved bass (particularly full sounding) can drown out my laminate both arco and pizz with minimal effort.

I have to take qualified exception to this statement. A given laminate-wood instrument may be as loud or louder than a given carved-wood bass. Each class has its own continuum of qualities; a great plywood bass is likely to outperform a mediocre carved-wood bass in volume. Furthermore, one "Model XYZ" will not have the exact sonic qualities of its sibling.

Where carved wood generally wins is its ability to vibrate faithfully, to express its input accurately. A single sheet of wood can vibrate pretty well; when you glue it to another piece of wood, you attenuate some of the vibrations, especially in the higher frequencies.

There can be advantages to the "laminate sound;" sometimes we want punchy or thuddy more than we want rich overtones and long sustain. I've mentioned before that I like playing my teacher's plywood bass because it's easy to draw a loud and pleasant sound from it ... but it does me no favors, because it obscures my technical weaknesses.
 
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I have to take qualified exception to this statement. A given laminate-wood instrument may be as loud or louder than a given carved-wood bass. Each class has its own continuum of qualities; a great plywood bass is likely to outperform a mediocre carved-wood bass in volume. Furthermore, one "Model XYZ" will not have the exact sonic qualities of its sibling.

Where carved wood generally wins is its ability to vibrate faithfully, to express its input faithfully. A single sheet of wood can vibrate pretty well; when you glue it to another piece of wood, you attenuate some of the vibrations, especially in the higher frequencies.

There can be advantages to the "laminate sound;" sometimes we want punchy or thuddy more than we want rich overtones and long sustain. I've mentioned before that I like playing my teacher's plywood bass because it's easy to draw a loud and pleasant sound from it ... but it does me no favors, because it obscures my technical weaknesses.

I'd be happy to adjust my statement about just being my experience!

overall point is that my laminates have never been nearly as loud as my carved instruments- BUT the laminates i've owned were budget line instruments, and the carved instruments were higher end than perhaps a lower level carved shen or similar.

my overall point is still that laminates are awesome and I sometimes choose to play mine over my much (much much) more expensive carved bass.
 
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Someone playing a bass they are used to is going to be able to get to the sound they want faster. Some ply basses project really well - but again, wood glued together will never vibrate as freely as a single piece of wood. There are no magical pieces of plywood, and there may be a carved top out there so dull that it under performs but I have yet to experience that.

A good, well set up carved bass played properly will be louder in general and fill the room with a more resonant and complex sound and be far louder than any ply bass. Of course, set up and technique come into it as well.
A strong player with high action on a ply may very well pull a bigger sound that a player with low action on a nice old carved bass.
Still, all things being equal, you will get more volume easier on a nice carved bass - AND have a easier time physically playing it.
 
It is not just at odds with people in the thread, it also goes against conventional wisdom. For one thing, you don't play ply and carved basses the exact same way to get the same sound. My best guess is you are just more used to the ply basses and not taking the time to work with the carved basses to maximize the energy you put into them and find the sound you are looking for. Or you are just hearing what you want to hear to justify saving money.
I think if you did these tests will a couple of very experienced players in the room with you, passing the basses back and forth, then you would get VERY different results.

I've read this numerous times. It's utterly at odds with my experiences. I've owned two laminates, a fully-carved bass and a hybrid. I've played many more basses -- carved and laminated. Wilfers, Strunals, Knillings, Shens, Christophers, Eastmans, Juzeks, a Thompson, a Hachez and others. I've found laminates to consistently be louder: sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Always by a noticeable degree.

I'm not disputing your experiences. I'm sure you're accurately reporting what you've found. And you're not the only one to make that observation. It's just odd that my experiences have been 180 degrees opposed.
 
Exactly, but making claims that go against the experience of most of the great players and teachers across time doesn't help anyone.
A plywood Shen is a solid, reliable instrument that anyone should be happy to have.

Frankly, it really doesn't matter one way or another. If you're getting what you need from your instrument, play it until and unless you feel differently.
 
Exactly, but making claims that go against the experience of most of the great players and teachers across time doesn't help anyone.
Heaven forbid someone have -- and report -- an unorthodox experience.

@damonsmith seems to feel that the TalkBass community must be protected from my heresies. @TroyK, perhaps you'd better delete this dangerous, erroneous thread.
 
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And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the round back of a Shen SB-88
And you may find yourself on a beautiful gig, with a plywood bass
And you may ask yourself
Well...How did I get here?

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself
How do I play this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that coveted carved top?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my plywood bass
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful gig!

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
 
And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a Shen SB-88
And you may find yourself on a beautiful gig, with a plywood bass
And you may ask yourself
Well...How did I get here?

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself
How do I play this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that coveted carved top?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful plywood bass
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful gig!

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...

Stop Making Sense, Chris.
Please.
 
Nah. If you spend enough time on the dark side you will come to realize that @damonsmith has his opinions based on his principles, which he is not shy about defending. And I respect his opinions and his resolution in defending them, even though we are only rarely in agreement. It's called peaceful co-existence.

But I also recognize that as bassists, Damon and I inhabit two different worlds and my ceiling is much lower than his, and things which are of paramount importance in his world are not even part of mine. So I buy the instruments I can afford and become as proficient on them as I can, but I also recognize that a five figure fully carved instrument would be wasted in my hands. Let a pro have it. I know the music I like to play and I know which types of bass meet my needs.
 

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