Double Bass Against my better judgment...

[vanderbrook]

You are just more used to the 88, you will get everything you need out of the hybrid once you put the time in.

I am of the opinion that I can get everything I need from either bass.

There are just certain sounds and resonances that are not in ply basses no matter how much people want them to be.

If carved/hybrid and ply basses sound different -- and they do -- then there must be "certain sounds" that are not in carved-top basses.

My ears still work, and I know what I like in a bass. What's been giving me trouble is that I like good-sounding carved-top basses and good-sounding plywood basses. They're different sounds. I like them both. I've played mediocre-sounding laminated basses and mediocre-sounding carved-top basses.

I'll admit that my dilemma would be even tougher if, say, the two basses were priced the same. The nominal $1,000 difference has me leaning toward keeping the SB88. If they were priced the same? I might still choose the 88.

If you do not like the sound of a well-set-up, high-quality plywood bass, I strongly suggest you not buy one. I do.

 

[Sam Sherry]

My ears still work, and I know what I like in a bass.

Excellent.

But listening to your own playing is only part of the equation.
Borrow some other bass players. Step back a couple of yards and listen up!

 

[Ed S]

Excellent.

But listening to your own playing is only part of the equation.
Borrow some other bass players. Step back a couple of yards and listen up!

That may be the best suggestion yet. Also consider different venues/groups of musicians/styles, amped vs acoustic, etc.

It can be (nearly?) impossible to find one bass that does EVERYTHING optimally. But if you prefer the ply for the type of music you are playing the most often, then that is the choice. Don't sacrifice your everyday enjoyment for the ONE occasion that you are playing something/someplace different.

Obviously, the hybrid isn't knocking your socks off. Not a clearly superior instrument. Nothing wrong w/ sticking with the ply until a truly superior axe (for your purposes) comes along (if it ever does.)

 

[BobDeRosa]

You didn't really say what kind of music you play most often. You imply that you're interested in jazz but have pretty much ruled out classical, and you seem to have few aspirations about ever playing Carnegie Hall. To me, that would point to the 88 as the keeper. While it's true that most jazz pros use carved basses, there's absolutely no shame in bringing a plywood to a jazz gig as long as you play it well. Most likely, the only kind of jazzer who would ever ask about your bass is another bassist, and since you'll be the only bassist at the gig, all will be good. You seem to like the 88 better anyway, which means that you'll probably play it better than you would the hybrid. Good luck.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

I went through a similar dilemma when I purchased my new Shen Willow flatback recently. Also from Bob Ross, as you know.

I spent a week comparing the carved willow flatback to a killer Shen 150 hybrid, including a long evening with my teacher where we both played and listened to each bass. The hybrid sound was warm and fat (and very intoxicating); the carved bass has more clarity and resonance. I finally figured out that I could eq a warm fat sound from the carved bass, but I couldn’t eq more resonance and clarity from the hybrid. And in an unamplified setting, the carved bass would likely cut through better.

 

[vanderbrook]

Excellent.

But listening to your own playing is only part of the equation.
Borrow some other bass players. Step back a couple of yards and listen up!

At first, I thought, yeah, I should do this. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought, playing out, I'll be amplified 19 times out of 20. Practicing, I'll only be hearing the bass from up close. What does a couple of yards back get me? Only what my wife hears while I'm practicing.

I went through a similar dilemma when I purchased my new Shen Willow flatback recently. Also from Bob Ross, as you know.

I spent a week comparing the carved willow flatback to a killer Shen 150 hybrid, including a long evening with my teacher where we both played and listened to each bass. The hybrid sound was warm and fat (and very intoxicating); the carved bass has more clarity and resonance. I finally figured out that I could eq a warm fat sound from the carved bass, but I couldn’t eq more resonance and clarity from the hybrid. And in an unamplified setting, the carved bass would likely cut through better.

Interesting observation. While I've played both amplified, I cannot A/B them amplified -- I only own one Full Circle, and it's currently on the hybrid.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

I did not compare them amplified

 

[damonsmith]

I am of the opinion that I can get everything I need from either bass.

If carved/hybrid and ply basses sound different -- and they do -- then there must be "certain sounds" that are not in carved-top basses.

My ears still work, and I know what I like in a bass. What's been giving me trouble is that I like good-sounding carved-top basses and good-sounding plywood basses. They're different sounds. I like them both. I've played mediocre-sounding laminated basses and mediocre-sounding carved-top basses.

I'll admit that my dilemma would be even tougher if, say, the two basses were priced the same. The nominal $1,000 difference has me leaning toward keeping the SB88. If they were priced the same? I might still choose the 88.

If you do not like the sound of a well-set-up, high-quality plywood bass, I strongly suggest you not buy one. I do.

There a are a few short sighted things here. People really, really want ply basses to be the answer - the easy care and lower price really make them very appealing. If they were the answer you'd see more musicians at high level playing them. Nobody wants to spend more and have more upkeep on their hands.
1. It isn't just about HOW an instrument sounds, it is about how the sound is produced and how much work your body puts in getting the sound.
2. Second, we all practice more than we play gigs or at least we should. Therefore you need to prioritize how a bass performs in the practice room under the bow. The more pleasurable practice is the better you are going to play.
Ply basses are a drag to bow and you are going to hit a wall at a certain point in that regard.
3. I love Shens, I have one. These basses you have are solidly adequate, but not "high quality". A high quality ply like New Standard will set you back as much as the hybrid.

 

[Anne Millington]

I'd say if you are interested in progressing with your arco playing, and not quite satisfied with your skills yet, that you get a more accomplished arco bassist to play them both for you. You can evaluate the relative sound produced, and your bassist can talk to you a bit about ease of playing, evenness of response, any hint of inadequacy in tone, subtlety, volume, etc. You definitely want something you will grow into, not something that will stop you in your tracks.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

For $1,000 more, I would need the 150 to knock my socks off. In this instance, it seems like it fails to meet that measure.

I will add that just because something is more expensive or deemed to be of better quality (ply vs hybrid) doesn’t mean it is necessarily better or a better fit for what you’re doing. With 40 years of experience, you’re no spring chicken and would have a discerning ear/feel for these kinds of things. I would go with your gut on this. If other folks can hear or feel a difference to go with the 150 then good for them, but you are not them and should prioritize what works for you.

Enjoy the 88

 

[TroyK]

If the more expensive bass isn't compelling to you, keep the less expensive one and be happy that you've connected with a modest instrument. Maybe someday you'll happen upon another bass that speaks to you and looks at you with those "adopt me" puppydog eyes, maybe not.

Play what you like. You're in a good position to decide.

 

[statsc]

The fact that you’re uncertain about whether to upgrade should tell you that this is not the right time to upgrade, or that this is not the right bass to upgrade to, or both! Don’t listen to so many other voices; listen to your gut. When the the right time or the right bass comes along, it will be an easy decision!

 

[vanderbrook]

There a are a few short sighted things here. People really, really want ply basses to be the answer - the easy care and lower price really make them very appealing. If they were the answer you'd see more musicians at high level playing them. Nobody wants to spend more and have more upkeep on their hands.
1. It isn't just about HOW an instrument sounds, it is about how the sound is produced and how much work your body puts in getting the sound.

As I mentioned in my initial post, the ply bass rewards my efforts with a huge sound; the hybrid with a more complex but somewhat quieter voice. Same effort. Different results.

2. Second, we all practice more than we play gigs or at least we should. Therefore you need to prioritize how a bass performs in the practice room under the bow. The more pleasurable practice is the better you are going to play.
Ply basses are a drag to bow and you are going to hit a wall at a certain point in that regard.

There could be a number of ways to explain it, but the ply bows slightly easier than the hybrid. And arco will always be a minor part of my playing... the last few notes on the occasional ballad. Pizz practice is more pleasurable on the ply.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

If the more expensive bass isn't compelling to you, keep the less expensive one and be happy that you've connected with a modest instrument. Maybe someday you'll happen upon another bass that speaks to you and looks at you with those "adopt me" puppydog eyes, maybe not.

Play what you like. You're in a good position to decide.

^^^Sage advice.

I have two versions of the same model bass, one hybrid, one ply. Both are great. If they were sitting side by side, I would always pick up the hybrid. But the ply lives in my office in a less than forgiving environment with wild swings of temperature and humidity. I spend much of my practice time on it and don't miss much, plus I get the added benefit of having the bass I perform on make me sound better with less effort than when I practice.

I remember the days when I only had a plywood bass for everything, and I was very happy with it. Those were good times, and I sure didn't feel I was missing anything. If you are digging your SB88, keep playing it until you actually feel you need something more. Hopefully by then, as in my situation, you'll be able to keep it and also get the slightly upscale bass you bond with. In the meantime, enjoy what you have!

 

[Drang22]

A further consideration is that a new solid top bass may be more likely to "open up" or "bloom" (for lack of better words) tone-wise over the first few years as the wood cures, whereas a laminated top is probably less likely to do so.

 

[damonsmith]

Again, I would interpret this as you having more experience with the ply on both counts. It may also be a question of set up. There is no magical piece of plywood that vibrates as freely as a single piece of wood. You can have your opinion, but you can't change physics.

As I mentioned in my initial post, the ply bass rewards my efforts with a huge sound; the hybrid with a more complex but somewhat quieter voice. Same effort. Different results.


There could be a number of ways to explain it, but the ply bows slightly easier than the hybrid. And arco will always be a minor part of my playing... the last few notes on the occasional ballad. Pizz practice is more pleasurable on the ply.

 

[vanderbrook]

...There is no magical piece of plywood that vibrates as freely as a single piece of wood...

I'd be much obliged if you'd point me toward the research that demonstrates this maxim and explains why it is necessarily the case. I'd like to understand.

I suppose, then, that the top on this 150 is subpar -- maybe too thick to vibrate as freely as possible? -- and that explains why the 88 is louder for a given investment of work?

Would it be the case, then, that a highly-optimized ply top might vibrate more freely than a poorly-optimized carved top?

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

...I'm going to post about my current double bass adventure/dilemma. (Why against my better judgment? Because I know that the opinions of other bassists will have varying degrees of relevance for me, and that I must make a decision that will please me, not you.) It is my hope that one of you will share an observation that I haven't thought of that will push me off the fence I'm straddling.

While many of you are more experienced than I, I have been playing DB for nearly 40 years, and I've owned laminated (2), fully-carved (1) and hybrid (2) instruments. I've played a number of other basses while shopping.

Back in August, following a hiatus of about five years, I purchased a Shen SB88 (laminated) and started playing again. Like the Engelhardt I started out on, the 88 is very resonant, and somewhat louder than both the carved and hybrid basses I've owned. I like the sound.

Late last month, I decided that I should upgrade to a hybrid bass, so I traded the 88 in on a Shen SB150. I'd already owned one of these, briefly, and have played others. Some 150s sound better than others. This one is a fine-sounding specimen.

Why the upgrade? A lot of reading here on TB convinced me that I needed a carved top if I was going to do any arco at all (and I've been taking some lessons with a symphony player to master the most fundamental of the fundamentals of arco-for-jazz -- occasional accompaniment, not soloing). I also made some inferences from posts here that anyone serious about playing jazz ought to be using a carved, or at least a hybrid bass. In some cases, no inference was needed; the poster as much as said so.

After a week with the 150, I called up the shop and inquired about swapping back to the 88. To shorten the already too-long story: I now have both basses, and am trying to decide which one to keep.

While the 88 and the 150 sound different, I like them both. When playing the 150, I miss the "punch" of the 88, and the amount of sound I get for the energy invested. When playing the 88, I must acknowledge that it doesn't have quite the "complexity" of tone that the 150 has.

I've taken the bow to each, and found that while the two basses sound slightly different under the bow, the differences are not large and there's no clear "winner." I freely admit this may have more to do with my nascent arco skills than the basses themselves (which are both wearing Spiro mittels).

I can keep the 88, and know that some of my peers (perhaps "colleagues" would be a better word) will look down on my laminated bass. I would enjoy it, though, and I don't think it would limit me, either technically, or in terms of getting gigs. And it would require less diligent care than a hybrid.

Or I can keep the 150, and miss the 88's punchiness, and think about the things I could have done with the difference in price. (Let's call it $1,000 -- pocket change for some, but not for me.) I would enjoy it, though, and I would know that I would never outgrow it. (BTW: the chances of me playing, or wanting to play classical music: 0%.)

If you have wisdom to share, I would love to read it. Except for this... IMO, there is, in some quarters, a certain amount of anti-laminate bias here on TB. Please save it for someone else. Like its hybrid cousin, the 88 is a great-sounding bass.

Thanks in advance.

I have no dog in this fight and probably shouldn't reply, because I'm an electric bass player with a whopping 5 years experience.

I got to the end of your post, and immediately thought, this dude should keep the 88 cause he likes the punch - and the judgy folks should leave him tf alone about his instrument choice.

 

[Acoop]

Something told you that you liked the 88 and you're the only one who matters. ... If you own the two take your time to play the two of them and decide later. ... Don't feel rushed, enjoy.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

This dead horse should be processed for glue so we could make something positive out of it. No?
Of course, plywood basses don’t generally have the tonal complexity of carved basses, nor are they the best choice for bowing. Gonna take a fragile old Italian bass to a club gig?
I’m spending a lot more time with the bow and my big old carved bass is much better for that than the Kay. However, the Kay was absolutely the right bass for jazz gigs last weekend.
Plywoods often amplify well, due to their short, simpler and punchy tone. Different strokes.

The best bass might not be the best bass for every situation.

It’s good to have options but only you really know what is right for you.