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Double Bass ALCOA?

#21
It just occurred to me there is something a bit strange about this. I remember reading history and listening to my parents and grandparents about rationing during WWII. I know metal was in big demand, but I have never heard that wood was. Seems to me they would want to focus the the aluminum on building aircraft rather than musical instruments.
 
#22
Gravedigger Dav said:
It just occurred to me there is something a bit strange about this. I remember reading history and listening to my parents and grandparents about rationing during WWII. I know metal was in big demand, but I have never heard that wood was. Seems to me they would want to focus the the aluminum on building aircraft rather than musical instruments.
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That bass was made in 1932, long before WWII, even longer before the US got involved.
 
#24
Gravedigger Dav said:
don't mess with tht finish. You could reduce the value by half.
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Sorry to bust your perceptions, but this is simply not true. The two highest prices I know of in the last ten years for these and the Pfretzschner aluminum basses were both expertly professionally polished basses and went for double the best price I know of for original painted versions of the same vintage and model.

As much as I and a lot of other folks respect vintage original, polished bling tends to trump painted brown on the market. Everybody wants a polished one, but few are willing to work for it. The key is to do it right and follow through all the way. That is about 30 hours being covered in dirt and grime and gunk with hands and ears rattling for days from the power tools. I take them to a professional chrome and polish shop- like the ones that hotrod and motorcycle guys use. Hand it over, come back two weeks later with a big big bag of cash, and they shine like a mirror.

Cool old bass! Play it enough and you'll get your own vibe going.

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com
 
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#25
Thanks for chiming in James. Upon further inspection I see that it has two serial numbers. One in the peg box and one in the bass written on the back. I've att ached two photos. James, do you have a table you could share of these numbers and their dates?
 

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#26
I also see in old posts that there are some diagrams of the neck components floating around out there somewhere, but the links aren't available any longer through these old posts. Anybody help me out? I'm also interested in finding some history about this old thing. Where might I find that? Not the history of Alcoa, but of number 373. And any links to some examples (besides those on James' site) would be great. The old links to those don't work either.
 
#27
373 in blue machinist ink is the build number from the old AlCoA skunkworks; I believe they were made in the Buffalo, NY plant- starting in 1929 along with the violins. My info shows that they stopped production due to financial issues the second half of 1934, with a little over 500 basses in total production, most of them completed before the turmoil that ended their building. That puts this one approx. late 1932. The 498 stamp was added after the whole thing had been built, likely around the time they had an order to process. Conn purchased some of the leftover stock and sold them up until the 1950s; relabeled, but from the original batch with the same markings.

Disassembled views of the original neck and internal parts are shown here; scroll down mid way and they are on the left side:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

You'll be hard pressed to find solid information on these old basses. Most of the hard data I have came from the backstage collections of the Heinze Museum. They have thousands of pages of old AlCoA company history and documents. I hired a graduate student to research and copy several hundred pages of information about ten years ago- numbers, orders, timelines, company gossip, who didn't pay their bills, that sort of "stuff". I also did some collaborative things with the Smithsonian a number of years ago that yielded similar results. I have enough to make a nice book, but I've got a few other projects that have priority over it. In no way does that make me any kind of expert; I'm just one of the few guys in the country that like these old tanks for everything beyond comparisons to wooden basses, treats folks with respect and excitement when they show up with one, and has worked on dozens of them.

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
 
#28
james condino said:
Sorry to bust your perceptions, but this is simply not true. The two highest prices I know of in the last ten years for these and the Pfretzschner aluminum basses were both expertly professionally polished basses and went for double the best price I know of for original painted versions of the same vintage and model.

As much as I and a lot of other folks respect vintage original, polished bling tends to trump painted brown on the market. Everybody wants a polished one, but few are willing to work for it. The key is to do it right and follow through all the way. That is about 30 hours being covered in dirt and grime and gunk with hands and ears rattling for days from the power tools. I take them to a professional chrome and polish shop- like the ones that hotrod and motorcycle guys use. Hand it over, come back two weeks later with a big big bag of cash, and they shine like a mirror.

Cool old bass! Play it enough and you'll get your own vibe going.

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com
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Thanks for the info. I was going on the traditional antique concept of leaving items original. Obviously you have specific knowledge about this item. I would agree a polished one would look a lot better.
 
#29
Gravedigger Dav said:
Exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.
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Gravedigger Dav said:
Thanks for the info. I was going on the traditional antique concept of leaving items original. Obviously you have specific knowledge about this item. I would agree a polished one would look a lot better.
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I have no idea what it is worth, but if it's not horribly valuable it can make economic sense to polish it, making it a VERY unique "prop" for you and any band you are in. That has financial value. Sometimes far more than the value of the item itself.
 
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#30
After seeing some really cool shined up Alcoa's, I've decided to make the jump. I feel lucky to have found a shop that's been making metal shiny just down the road for over 27 years. The owner showed me examples of his work that he'd polished 14 years ago and still look fantastic - and without any significant cleaning and with no clear coat applied. I'm so excited to see the final product and hope they can photo document the progress for me. It should be ready in three weeks from next Monday.

I've decided to leave the German made tuning machines unpolished, which should make for a nice contrast to the gleaming chrome. Once completed, the inside of the gear box will be satin and not high gloss, as it's too difficult to get to with the buffers. These folks have clients that include the Prince of Saudi Arabia, medical equipment manufacturers (anyone need a skull cap replacement? Seriously, a chrome dome!), and some heavy hitter brewers who wanted shiny brewing vessels (and also sponsor a little ball park up the road).

So, now my work begins. I've got to remove all the non-aluminum parts before I drop it off on Monday morning. Obviously, the strings, bridge and tailpiece are no-brainers, but can someone tell me if there are any any tricks to pulling an Alcoa endpin? If it's like my Kay's, it'll be easy enough, but the one's I'm less sure about are the the nut and fingerboard. James mentioned that the nut is attached to a small plate that's simply screwed into the end of the neck and this screw will be easy to get to once the tuning machines are removed. After looking more closely at the fingerboard, I see that it's separated from the maple core about 3 or 4 inches at the bottom and 5 or 6 inches at the top (just enough to slide a baseball card into). I've seen a video of a luthier who wicked alcohol into the seam between the fingerboard and maple which made the hyde glue so brittle that, with a little pulling pressure and a bit of patience, the fingerboard just popped off. I'll definitely be revisiting this video before starting this part, but if anyone has any other tips I'm all ears.

I'll do my best to keep y'all posted on the progress.
 
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#31
Hey congrats on your find! I'm sure the guys you hired know what they are doing, just bear in mind that it's pre-war aluminum, and you don't want to try any sort of blasting on it. I polished mine myself with advice from many including James (thanks James!). It has been a fun and great show piece, and I enjoy directing the reflections from stage lights at people in the audience and watch them get blinded!
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#34
All prepped, now to drop her off. Everything came apart nicely. The three screws holding the maple neck insert to the alum. neck were in great shape and someone added a fourth wood screw near the bottom of the neck near the heal which I'm going to drill, re-tap, and replace with a machine screw. It's so nice to work with aluminum and brass as the bolts don't get seized. Anyway, shiny photos soon to come.
 
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#35
My son is a music student at our local University. They have a instrument room and I wandered into it yesterday and saw 4 old beat up basses that no one is using. I was surprised to find one is an Alcoa aluminum bass. It has the fake wood paint. It is missing the end pin, tail piece, and soundpost (If there is one in these bases?) and strings. The tuners and fretboard are there. The paint is a bit beat up but no dents I saw in my quick look at it. How much do you think it is worth in this condition? I'm trying to learn as much luthier-ing as I can working on old cheap basses, so I'm willing to do the work on this one in my spare time. Please help with an idea of how much I should offer them or the max I should pay if they make me an offer. Thanks in advance.
 
#38
Interlochen used to have a whole fleet of them in various stages of disrepair. I thnk KC may have a couple from there; 'surprised he has not posted yet. I'm told that one now resides in the garden of an old professor, dressed up as a scarecrow. Joseph Maddy was the driving force in getting these old basses built by AlCoA. He was a professor at Interlochen in the late 20s / 30s and had a couple of outside businesses that were located in that area, so there were a lot of them around. I have heard the story of floating them out on the lake many times by different former students. It was almost a right of passage. You can get a crazy African water drum thing going on if you seal the endpin hole and add about 20 gallons of water inside the bass. I also know of more than one that has gone down the 230 mile stretch of the Grand Canyon on the river. I dream of getting back to Redwall Cavern or National Canyon with one of these some day and getting a groove on!

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com
 
#40
Many thanks to James Condino for helping me find a buyer for the Alcoa. This bass will soon be on its way to London, which will allow me to be on my way to Asheville for some luthier schooling with James. Couldn't have worked out better!

(Apparently that's where all shiny basses are going nowadays!)
 

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