All Blues

[Ketbass]

I attended (in 1980 or so) a master class of Ron Car.....oops, MR. Carter...who was adamant about the bassline ostinato on All Blues is to be played throughout the tune, both Melody and Solos. He was ADAMANT, I say.
Also - note how Paul Cham..., oops, MR. Chambers... misses the Eb7#9 @ 1:02 on the recording - he plays a "D" there instead of an Eb. Interesting.
All Done.
Thanks.

I know this is the electric bass side but I kinda was expecting a transcription to go along with these arguments. Loved the one for Fee Fi Fo Fum. But carry on. I’m just here for all the info I can soak up.

with some real high fallutin Berklee types.

Whoa, I could resemble that! But certainly have been called worse…

 

[brianrost]

I have always played this song from the Real Book changes, since I am an illiterate savage. The second chord in the Real Book changes is simply say C7 and not C7/G or Gm7add6. I play the same pattern up a 4th: C,A,Bb.

I used to do that until I saw a transcription with the G ostinato repeated under the C tonality in bars 5-8. I went back and listened to the record and that is indeed what Paul Chambers played. Technically G, E and F work OK under a C7...the F acts as a tension, the 11th.

There's no third in the bass line, but the Eb7#9-D7#9 turnaround is ambiguous. For an Eb7#9 the notes are Eb-G-Bb-Db-F#. For a D7#9 the notes are D-F#-A-C-F The G ostinato line includes E and F, not Eb and F#. Hey, it's the blues...

This is the song that launched Allman Bros. jamming like "Dreams", "Whipping Post" and "Elizabeth Reed", minor key (or mode) jazz waltzes.

what happens is that the song goes from G mixolidian to G dorian.

So where does the Eb come from? It's in neither mode, but it is in the G natural minor scale. F# is also in neither mode. G Mixolydian to G Dorain simply flips the major 3rd (B) for the minor 3rd (Bb).

 

[Wasnex]

So where does the Eb come from?

What Eb are you talking about? Bars 5 and 6 don't have an Eb.

G Dorian = G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F Same notes as C Mixolydian. C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb

 

[brianrost]

The Eb7#9 is in the turnaround, as in a typical minor blues (G Aeolian)

 

[Wasnex]

The Eb7#9 is in the turnaround, as in a typical minor blues (G Aeolian)

View attachment 5150641

AFAIK, That has nothing to do with bars 5 and 6...which is where G Dorian was suggested.


Although the song borrows alterations from G minor blues...you never hear G minor.

 

[Michael Milner]

IMHO, the best part is Trane's solo

Cheers, y'alls.

 

[pfschim]

..... No idea where the Real Book changes came from.

FWIW, the original Real Book (Vol 1) was the product of 2 students at Berklee in the 70's.

I was playing a lot of jazz in the 70's and got my copy "under the counter" at a local music store in Chicago. It was originally considered illegal as no royalties were paid to any of the composers. I think Hal Leonard publishing got its hands on it eventually and made it legit somehow.

 

[brianrost]

AFAIK, That has nothing to do with bars 5 and 6...which is where G Dorian was suggested. Although the song borrows alterations from G minor blues...you never hear G minor.

We're only considering bars 5 and 6? OK, then just ignore everything I wrote about Eb. Yes, I agree that you never hear G minor.

I think Hal Leonard publishing got its hands on it eventually and made it legit somehow.

They made it legit by paying the royalties. That's also why each volume has some different songs from the illegal ones...probably a problem getting clearance for the omitted songs. That's why I keep both versions, never know which book someone is going to reference, though as time passes it's less likely that people have the older books. I marked my table of contents to indicate what songs were changed, just in case I need to refer to them.

I'm done here...

 

[Don Kasper]

you never hear G minor.

Yes, I agree that you never hear G minor.

Disagree...
Below is the aggregate harmonic & melodic material in bars 5 & 6 - it is all Gmin9,11,13 , if the "G" bassline ostinato is being played...IF the bassist were to move to a "C..." in the bass, it would transform the chord to C9sus,13, add3, but that doesn't ever happen on the recording.)
Listen to the original recording at 0:32 thru 0:36.
Remember - the title is "KIND OF......blue". With the ostinato bassline in "G....", the IV chord never really appears, though it could.
(Don't get me started on "The Real Book" book of nonsense.)
Thanks.

 

[pfschim]

We're only considering bars 5 and 6? OK, then just ignore everything I wrote about Eb. Yes, I agree that you never hear G minor.



They made it legit by paying the royalties. That's also why each volume has some different songs from the illegal ones...probably a problem getting clearance for the omitted songs. That's why I keep both versions, never know which book someone is going to reference, though as time passes it's less likely that people have the older books. I marked my table of contents to indicate what songs were changed, just in case I need to refer to them.

I'm done here...

Yeah, I get it. I still have that original, very dog eared copy of the RB Vol 1 as well as Vol 2. In the 90's a Sax player I knew gave me a CD full of these things, including the original volumes as well as some of the horn books versions in Eb and Bb. And then there is the iReal app. I still find uses for them on various calls I get.

 

[Wasnex]

Remember - the title is "KIND OF......blue".

??? AFAIK we are discussing All Blues. The album is titled Kind of Blue. Track 1 on side two is titled All Blues

Not sure where you are getting Gmin since the melody plays B natural over the I chord and the horns playing the background lines in 3rds are playing D/B, E/C, F/D just like the Real Book indicates.

Furthermore once they get into the solo, the piano starts adding the major 3rd (B natural).

Here's a transcription...I don't claim it to be perfect:

 

[Don Kasper]

??? AFAIK we are discussing All Blues. The album is titled Kind of Blue. Track 1 on side two is titled All Blues

Ooops...My mistake. The tune is All Blues...Sorry.

Not sure where you are getting Gmin since the melody plays B natural over the I chord and the horns playing the background lines in 3rds are playing D/B, E/C, F/D just like the Real Book indicates.

I am referring to bars 5 and 6 of the form - all over a G pedal ostinato - Please listen to the melody and harmony in bars 5 & 6 - what do you hear there? What would you write on a leadsheet?
(The YT claims it is "C7 chord over a G7 chord, but there is NO B natural in bars 5 & 6, which is my original point.)
Sorry for my error regarding the Title of the Tune.
I still claim that there is a definite "Gminor......." chord in bars 5 & 6.
Thanks for your interest.

 

[Wasnex]

@Don Kasper

Screen shot at 0:37 of the transcription video...If I understand, you are specifically saying these two bars are G min:

Arguably, G,Bb,D,F,A,C,E

I could agree this is G minor with a bunch of junk on top. However, it's only G min because of the bass ostinato.

If the bass played the ostinato from C, you could stack it C,E,G,Bb,D,F,A (same exact notes). In the Kind of Blue recording, my ears are hearing a C chord in 2nd inversion.

But these bars are not what I am contesting

I am saying IMHO, the song overall is G Major.

Not sure what the difference is in the Live In Stockholm recording, but to my ears it sounds evolved and played in to the point where those bars no longer sound like a weak C7 chord.

 

[Don Kasper]

two bars are G min:

4 bars in 3/4....2 bars in 6/8...Yes.

Arguably, G,Bb,D,F,A,C,E

I could agree this is G minor

Exactly.

the song overall is G Major.

Agree, but it does go to Gminor...that part of the form was in question in the original YT.
I will leave now.
Thanks for your interest.

 

[TreySonagras]

All Blues is often the first tune called on a pickup gig. I will simply ask the leader if they want Real Book changes. Most of the time that’s what they want.

 

[HelpImaRock]

about the C7 over G7, that is something that normally people get wrong, as in this case. this is a modal blues. what happens is that the song goes from G mixolidian to G dorian. there is no change of chord, there is a change of mode

Let's go to the video comments!


@AlbertAnguela
1 day ago
about the C7 over G7, that is something that normally people get wrong, as in this case. this is a modal blues. what happens is that the song goes from G mixolidian to G dorian. there is no change of chord, there is a change of mode

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@LearnJazzBasswithMattRybicki
1 day ago
Hm. I'm open to being wrong, but can you defend your position? What's your source for this perspective? If you go to Miles' solo itself, he's playing an awful lot of things that imply at least some kind of C. Certainly the modal thing applies to the album as a whole. And of course G dorian would share the notes of C mixolydian. And, ultimately, unless there's a specific direct link to his intention with the tune, I feel this can be interpreted in both ways.


@AlbertAnguela1 day ago (edited)
@LearnJazzBasswithMattRybicki I studied this song in the modal harmony class at Berklee. that is my source. of course you can see it your way, although if you play that compound chord (C7/G7) on the piano you will hear a dissonance that never happens on the recording. no one is playing a B natural on those bars. that is the beauty of the bass line, it works in both modes, that is why you can play it through the first 8th bars and give the modal flavour to the song. of course lots of players solo and acompany the song as if it was a regular blues in 3/4 but then it looses a lot of its meaning.

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@LearnJazzBasswithMattRybicki
1 day ago
@AlbertAnguela Ah, yes I see your point about the G7. I wasn't fully thinking that through. I should've said just "C7 over G" or "C7 and the bass stays the same". I agree that it shouldn't have been G7. I stand corrected on that - that was a poorly thought-out point on my part. I still stand by the overall intention that bar 5 could at least be thought of both ways. As C7 or G dorian. What's interesting is that Bill sometimes clearly implies the Gminor and sometimes implies C7 too. I'm looking here: Nonetheless, again your point is well-taken and has given me a new way to think about it


@AlbertAnguela1 day ago
@LearnJazzBasswithMattRybicki I thought of this song in your way for a long time until I took that class. but once I tried to improvise thinking G dorian instead of C7 a whole new feeling was there. something unique to it. keeping the ostinato on the bass made more sense and easier too. to my ears all the solos and comping in the original recording had a new meaning too. Coltrane is probably the most C7 ish of all (what a word, hahaha), and Bill comes and goes. but Miles and Cannonball are keeping the modal spirit of the song. on the free ways of jazz anything is possible, of course. so glad to have added a new perspective to your palette of options. nice to have this little chat with you

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@LearnJazzBasswithMattRybicki
1 day ago
@AlbertAnguela Same here, thanks

 

[Wasnex]

@HelpImaRock I definitely don't hear C7/G7. IMHO the original is something like Gmin7add6.

If we call this Gmin13, you find C7 buried inside. So while the Real Book changes are not true to the original...IMHO they are not all that out of line.

Gmin13 (all notes and extensions) = G,Bb,D,F,A,C,E with C7 in bold. Keep in mind C7 is a normal IV chord for G Maj blues.

So while playing C7 does change the mood a bit, IMHO it does not really shift the tonal center away G Maj Blues. Pretty sure this was the whole point behind the original.

IMHO, the choices you make on how to play this song are somewhat dependent on who you are gigging with. Some people will chastise you for playing C7, and others will chastise you for playing it like the original.

 

[HelpImaRock]

@HelpImaRock I definitely don't hear C7/G7. IMHO the original is something like Gmin7add6.

If we call this Gmin13, you find C7 buried inside. So while the Real Book changes are not true to the original...IMHO they are not all that out of line.

Gmin13 (all notes and extensions) = G,Bb,D,F,A,C,E with C7 in bold. Keep in mind C7 is a normal IV chord for G Maj blues.

So while playing C7 does change the mood a bit, IMHO it does not really shift the tonal center away G Maj Blues. Pretty sure this was the whole point behind the original.

IMHO, the choices you make on how to play this song are somewhat dependent on who you are gigging with. Some people will chastise you for playing C7, and others will chastise you for playing it like the original.

That's cool. In summation, I liked the lesson and reposted it. As happens, TB ran with it, which is fine. I posted the comments because I thought it was cool that a post here spurred a post there and the guy who made the video considered changing how he thought about it.

As for me playing the song, I doubt anything happens with that past playing with the record. But it's better than learning Freebird.

 

[Wasnex]

That's cool. In summation, I liked the lesson and reposted it. As happens, TB ran with it, which is fine. I posted the comments because I thought it was cool that a post here spurred a post there and the guy who made the video considered changing how he thought about it.

As for me playing the song, I doubt anything happens with that past playing with the record. But it's better than learning Freebird.

If you are just playing for yourself, IMHO you will only learn so much from sticking with the original ostinato. I suggest exploring what you can do with the changes, try walking and try different rhythmic patterns that fit stylistically with the original feel. Keep in mind that when skilled jazz musicians are playing, they don't even necessarily stick to the same changes. Rather they will throw in alternate chords and play outside of the changes using a variety of different formulas. Also they may suspend time and play a vamp over one chord or some sort of turn around. There is a great deal of freedom, but there is generally an expectation that you spread out using a structured/learned approach rather than just vomiting random notes that may or may not be appropriate.

So while I think it's important to be able to understand and play the original, there is much more to explore once you get that under your fingers.

 

[HelpImaRock]

If you are just playing for yourself, IMHO you will only learn so much from sticking with the original ostinato. I suggest exploring what you can do with the changes, try walking and try different rhythmic patterns that fit stylistically with the original feel. Keep in mind that when skilled jazz musicians are playing, they don't even necessarily stick to the same changes. Rather they will throw in alternate chords and play outside of the changes using a variety of different formulas. Also they may suspend time and play a vamp over one chord or some sort of turn around. There is a great deal of freedom, but there is generally an expectation that you spread out using a structured/learned approach rather than just vomiting random notes that may or may not be appropriate.

So while I think it's important to be able to understand and play the original, there is much more to explore once you get that under your fingers.

Having learned this song, I'm going to move onto the next one. And instead of deleting this terrible thread, I'm going to leave it up as a reminder to never post about learning a song again.