Double Bass All in with 5ths tuning

[Huy Nguyen]

Hard to believe that I've been doing this 5ths thing for over a year. It's fricken fun playing jazz in 5ths. Again, some things are harder, yet some things are simpler. There's just more to play with tbh. The only frustrations is that sometimes simple things on 4ths tuning is now a big challenge or that it's not as intuitive. 4ths is kinda intuitive in a way.

But whats possible now is all the stuff you couldn't reach before. Which means that melodies like Isfahan and Inner Urge are now possible. Stuff that seemed impossible in 4ths.

Soloing wise I think there's a beauty in the layout. There's a symmetry with playing a scale starting from the root to the 6ths with a small shift on just two adjacent strings. You can see it in 4ths tuning if you play a scale on just two strings and the 5th starts on the next string. This makes playing major pentatonics much easier. And the 3rd below the root is always a half step (major) or whole step (minor) below on the adjacent lower string.

It's a commitment but the switch turned out not to be as bad as i thought. Working through all my old bebop rep and getting the hang of that again. At this point I dont' know if I can really switch back to 4ths without major effort. My head has fully switched into 5ths and 4ths is now weird. lol

Anyways, hoping this inspires others to try it out. Easier to go cold turkey.

 

[JBarz]

Right on. You should/could maybe consider a 5-string - hit me up if you might maybe want to buy my Kay with guts.

I caught a little bit of the birds singing along on my morning practice session today on tape. Pretty neat, imho.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

I'm on my second year playing mostly classical music. At this point I rarely but occasionally make mistakes related to 4ths tuning muscle memory. I agree that 4ths tuning is more intuitive. In 4ths, there are often multiple good fingering solutions for a given passage, whereas 5ths there is often only one and it doesn't always feel good. This makes sight-reading fairly difficult for me. Still, I love the sound I get and I enjoy the challenge of solving a puzzle every time I pick up new music.

I'm breaking in a set of Tempera 5ths strings. The jury is still out if I like them better than my old setup. If anyone is interested, I just emailed the company and they replied with a store link that is not published on their front page. They are slightly more expensive than their 4ths sets.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Welp not only have I gone all in on 5ths tuning, but also going all in on jazz arco. Gonna get my setups to be more bow friendly.

I do have to say, clarity of pitch in 5ths tuning is f'n huge. I was jamming with a guitarist and it was so much easier to hear myself hit the right pitches. It makes it so much easier in a way. The other thing about the way the string fall lay out on the fingerboard (again), it really lends it somehow easier to how I think and remember of things that it makes memorizing melodies easier. And seeing relationships between the notes in triads. It's probably personal to me, but somehow it's easier for me to visualize.

 

[stefaniw80401]

Major and minor 3rds are difficult in 5ths tuning.

For an instrument (bass) that plays a lot of chord tones, especially on double bass since scale length is so long, 5ths tuning did not work for me.

For example, play these intervals:
1-5-b7-1 or 1-3-5-1

 

[JBarz]

Major and minor 3rds are difficult in 5ths tuning.

For an instrument (bass) that plays a lot of chord tones, especially on double bass since scale length is so long, 5ths tuning did not work for me.

For example, play these intervals:
1-5-b7-1 or 1-3-5-1

Yeah, but in all fairness you get used to it after a couple years of giving your brain no other options.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Yup. You get good at shifting smaller jumps. It really rewards those who are hand-ear coordinated. The other thing those new to 5ths don’t get is that because the notes are easier to hear and more resonant, I feel like better sound makes shifting easier. I’ve time you get more precise.

Things like vomit exercises help. Joel Quarrington teaches a variation of the exercise that shifts from the third or fourth finger to land on the first finger after a big jump.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Omg. Some thing are far easier in 5ths tuning. Moose the Mooch used to be a bear and now it’s manageable. I’m messing with some Milt styled slap here.



I’m like 18 months with this and I don’t think the drawbacks are that severe. For me there’s more to gain going to 5ths. Major/minor 3rds not that big of a deal. You learn to shift better and more but the shifts are smaller as said before.

 

[Brayden Wise]

This thread has been a RIDE! I’ve flirted with fifths tuning on EB and DB since I was a kid, but made the leap about three years ago, kinda on a dare with my stand partner (I’m in a military band up in Canada, we play everything). Very similar observations throughout. Work bass (80s Juzek) has the RM Spiros on it, my personal axe (Upton Std Hybrid) has Obligatos (5ths set). I think I like the RM low C better but I’ve also been mucking around with rosin and technique work and I’m changing my mind (I felt like the Obligato low C was too flabby, while the RM low C, after two years of daily use, is pretty dead)

I’ve gotten pretty handy with shifting and have had similar observations about intonation and sympathetic resonance. In wind band rehearsals, I KNOW when that ish is in tune because everything shakes. It took a bit of work to condition myself to be more secure in what position I needed to set my self up in for triadic/chordal work, but it’s very much second nature now.

The brain/ear/fingers connection is there, and I can connect what I’m thinking/singing to what I’m playing, so heads and solos are way easier.

For funsies I was trying to use the house DB at jam sessions but have now just resorted to bringing my own instrument. Good opportunity to spread The Good Word(tm).

Books-wise, I have JQ’s stuff, and have been adapting Rabbath and some others to my own liking. The big missing piece I’ve found is a scale book/system for modes/jazz scales/7ths arpeggios. If anyone knows something I don’t, lemme know, otherwise I’m gonna write something myself.

Yay 5ths!

 

[bass player 53]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but the live duo album of
Jim Hall/ Red Mitchell showcases the
wonderful playing and sound of
Red Mitchell’s 5th tuning.
Available on YouTube.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

This thread has been a RIDE! I’ve flirted with fifths tuning on EB and DB since I was a kid, but made the leap about three years ago, kinda on a dare with my stand partner (I’m in a military band up in Canada, we play everything). Very similar observations throughout. Work bass (80s Juzek) has the RM Spiros on it, my personal axe (Upton Std Hybrid) has Obligatos (5ths set). I think I like the RM low C better but I’ve also been mucking around with rosin and technique work and I’m changing my mind (I felt like the Obligato low C was too flabby, while the RM low C, after two years of daily use, is pretty dead)

I’ve gotten pretty handy with shifting and have had similar observations about intonation and sympathetic resonance. In wind band rehearsals, I KNOW when that ish is in tune because everything shakes. It took a bit of work to condition myself to be more secure in what position I needed to set my self up in for triadic/chordal work, but it’s very much second nature now.

The brain/ear/fingers connection is there, and I can connect what I’m thinking/singing to what I’m playing, so heads and solos are way easier.

For funsies I was trying to use the house DB at jam sessions but have now just resorted to bringing my own instrument. Good opportunity to spread The Good Word(tm).

Books-wise, I have JQ’s stuff, and have been adapting Rabbath and some others to my own liking. The big missing piece I’ve found is a scale book/system for modes/jazz scales/7ths arpeggios. If anyone knows something I don’t, lemme know, otherwise I’m gonna write something myself.

Yay 5ths!

Glad to hear it. I have one remaining EB fretless still strung in 4ths and fiddle with it now and then. The brain has switched to where 4ths is now a foreign tuning. What have you done with Rabbath? I'm interested.

I don't know of anything related to models/arps that is 5ths oriented. Most of my own thing is derived from some Barry Harris concepts handed down through multiple people. Right now I'm messing around a lot with melodic coupling and playing a head up an interval while still harmonizing with the base melody tones. Modes still dont' quite sit well with me but exploring the territory of diminished scales is fun right now.

 

[stefaniw80401]

Take a look at the Bornoff 1-string patterns. It'll get your modes together regardless of 5ths or 4ths tunings.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I’m a few months in and the Joel Quarrington technique stuff is incredible. I’ve been adapting The “Move” exercises as well as his slow deliberate practice ethos to Barry Harris’ scale and arpeggio work wand the results are incredible to me.

My intonation has never been better (all the Arco helps) but more importantly, my left hand has never felt stronger. The bowed scales, esp doing everything with vibrato, feels like it’s really transforming my left hand along do much concentration on the fingers up in the TP registers. The confidence I get in stopping a note and generating a tone is different like never before, and I’ve been playing over 20 years.

I don’t think it matters if you’re playing in 4ths tuning. IMO it’s work working on JQs stuff and I’m planning on bringing the thumb back but using the same principles. It’s not about hand spacing like Simandl. More about using the ear coordination and pitch expectation.

Here’s the related vid.

 

[Brayden Wise]

Hey all, just getting around to posting this one here. Finally got a recording of my playing in fifths with the Steve Grebanier Guild at Hermann's Jazz Club here in Victoria BC this past summer. We did a show of the music of Pat Metheny, and while I am gently shaking my fist at the audio engineer on the original recording, Steve did a decent job of cleaning it up.

My DB is an Upton hybrid (fifths tuned obvi) with Obligatos. I've got a Rev Solo pickup that I'm going to put back on my bass, and a Fdeck HPF that I want to reintroduce to the mix, as well as some kind of mic that I'd like to blend into things (currently have a DPA 4099 but am eyeballing what Gary is doing to his Ear Trumpet Nadine mic).

Hope you find a few good notes in there! (first bass solo, over Bright Size Life, starts around 2:29)

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I’m a few months in and the Joel Quarrington technique stuff is incredible. I’ve been adapting The “Move” exercises as well as his slow deliberate practice ethos to Barry Harris’ scale and arpeggio work wand the results are incredible to me.

My intonation has never been better (all the Arco helps) but more importantly, my left hand has never felt stronger. The bowed scales, esp doing everything with vibrato, feels like it’s really transforming my left hand along do much concentration on the fingers up in the TP registers. The confidence I get in stopping a note and generating a tone is different like never before, and I’ve been playing over 20 years.

I don’t think it matters if you’re playing in 4ths tuning. IMO it’s work working on JQs stuff and I’m planning on bringing the thumb back but using the same principles. It’s not about hand spacing like Simandl. More about using the ear coordination and pitch expectation.

Here’s the related vid.

Im in 4ths and have adapted his LH technique to fretless EB. The result: total freedom in shifting, much improved intonation, improved lyrical playing, and above all, totally relaxed, pain-free playing.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Im in 4ths and have adapted his LH technique to fretless EB. The result: total freedom in shifting, much improved intonation, improved lyrical playing, and above all, totally relaxed, pain-free playing.

Fretless! I didn’t think about that. Gonna have to try it now.

Yeah that last two bits: relaxed and pain free is what’s amazing

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Fretless! I didn’t think about that. Gonna have to try it now.

Yeah that last two bits: relaxed and pain free is what’s amazing

It's a total game changer.
I'll never hold unnecessary tension in my left hand again. It's like exhaling.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

It's a total game changer.
I'll never hold unnecessary tension in my left hand again. It's like exhaling.

I think it might have something to do with no longer having to hold the regular hand shape and finger distancing as a physical reference to pitches, aka positions and box shapes. When you are free of having to maintain that physical constraint, all the tension in your hands drop as now the tension is a aural/mental reference, not a physical one. You're free from that physical tension but the investment needing to me made is to have much stronger internal sense of pitch and pitch expectation. It becomes an embodied skill or knowledge and there must be faith in the body's ability to deliver said pitch on demand without needing a physical structure or reference.

I just tried my fretless for a moment and yeah, there it is. I could prob play a cello right now and do alright. Joel demonstrations doing exactly this on the Tonebase lesson.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

A footnote in my fifths journey.

My primary reason for switching to fifths is a musical one: I wanted to be able to play the melody notes up high and bring in the lower strings as support. Kinda chord-melody style that you find often with jazz guitar. You get this in spades with 5ths tuning. I've been doing a lot of transcribing of Red's playing, especially his use of double stops, and this idea is all over it. Red is amazing.... he uses double stops not just as a way to add chords but also rhythmic punctuation. Yeah he's really drumming while playing melody and bass all at the same time. Whats kinda odd tho in all the transcriptions is that he rarely plays a 6th on adjacent string. 30% plays a 5th when using an adjacent string using double stops. Predominantly he uses 10ths on the G and A strings.

I still like hitting the 6th intervals bc it creates a drop 2 type of sound. Great for the two upper strings... starts to get muddy with the middle strings. 6ths on the lower strings is nothing but mud.

But I think I identified the clear downside to 5ths tho. Octaves are harder and more awkward. Double stop octaves are uncomfortable. They're do-able but I don't reach for octave displacement as much as I once did with walking. The reason is that I'm playing the upper strings with a strong finger (index or middle) and a lower string with the weaker fingers (ring or pinky). Yes you can do it but again, it's not comfortable. Meanwhile in 4ths it's very natural bc you have a strong finger on the thick lower string and the weaker finger on the higher string. So far of the tunes I'm transcribing, Red doesn't do it often either.

The surprise however is that an octave on *adjacent strings* is possible up in TP. It takes some building of muscle and form to accomplish this. Stuff Stuff uses this for an interesting effect in some of his solos on violin.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Of course the moment I write the above, I transcribe a section where Red's playing octaves while walking for Warne Marsh. Crazy. I don't think i can play it standing up. Makes me think his sitting position is an advantage. I might have to get a Robpin or commit to sitting down.

I've listened to this a hundred times before transcribing and didn't notice how intense he gets until now. Not Mellow!