Double Bass All in with 5ths tuning

[Huy Nguyen]

A full year of working with the stick o'pain. Another pro with 5ths tuning is that the easier ability to double stops really helps with working with intonation and working with open strings. I tried to do the same with 4ths tuning on my fretless and it doesn't come as easy - even with the close note "spacing" in 4ths tuning.

 

[stefaniw80401]

A full year of working with the stick o'pain. Another pro with 5ths tuning is that the easier ability to double stops really helps with working with intonation and working with open strings. I tried to do the same with 4ths tuning on my fretless and it doesn't come as easy - even with the close note "spacing" in 4ths tuning.

You sound great Huy, and you're dedicated to the 5ths tuning. Watching your video I'm seeing mostly single string work -- especially up and down the G-string. Can you play this same head and solo more cross-string?

Although I'm in 4ths tuning, I am somewhat interested in 5ths tuning -- and honestly more interested in Viennese tuning than 5ths.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

You sound great Huy, and you're dedicated to the 5ths tuning. Watching your video I'm seeing mostly single string work -- especially up and down the G-string. Can you play this same head and solo more cross-string?

Although I'm in 4ths tuning, I am somewhat interested in 5ths tuning -- and honestly more interested in Viennese tuning than 5ths.

More cross string playing? What do you want for just a year at this? lol

No really thanks for the kind comments. What you see when I play the melody is as about cross string I can get. This is the price that is paid with moving away from 4ths tuning. 4ths is nice bc it’s compact. The drawback is that reaching larger intervals is harder. 5ths trades runs the other way. Larger shifts become easier and less ability to play the same thing on different parts of the neck.

To play the same melody on a lower string means I would be venturing into typical never never land: thumb position at the octave but on the lower two strings. Harder and my to skills simply aren’t there yet. Maybe in the future. I think you will find the some sort of comprise with Viennese tuning too. Going to 5 strings brings a different set of problems.

If I was playing just classical idk if I’d stay in 5ths. 5ths is great for jazz for many different reasons.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

just had a pretty big dang epiphany:

The Prelude from Bach Cello Suites #1 is a lot of open strings in it if you play up at the nut (typical half-position in Simandl). Pretty much every phrase can be used as intonation practices against a static note: the open string in 5ths tuning. Usually the G or D since it revolves around G maj. Rather than seeing it as one large piece, there's now dozens of etudes in it to work on intonation!

 

[stefaniw80401]

just had a pretty big dang epiphany:

The Prelude from Bach Cello Suites #1 is a lot of open strings in it if you play up at the nut (typical half-position in Simandl). Pretty much every phrase can be used as intonation practices against a static note: the open string in 5ths tuning. Usually the G or D since it revolves around G maj. Rather than seeing it as one large piece, there's now dozens of etudes in it to work on intonation!

Well -- the JSB cello suites were written for cello in 5ths. The lore is that JSB himself likely had his viola at his side while he wrote the cello suites -- the viola being basically a small portable cello.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Well -- the JSB cello suites were written for cello in 5ths. The lore is that JSB himself likely had his viola at his side while he wrote the cello suites -- the viola being basically a small portable cello.

Yeah that was my thinking. He possibly used it to create études for himself. Not sure if it has the same impact in 4ths tuning

 

[AlM]

As an occasional mandolin-tickler I can only imagine the confusion of playing my upright in fifths - I associate that tuning with the ability to play octave double-stops in my left hand!
I’m sure it’s quite the adjustment

 

[stefaniw80401]

Umm ... of course the JSB cello suites impact everyone that studies them...mostly bass clef instrumentalists including tubist and trombonist, and violist, all of which I have witnessed when I was in music school.

Huy, 10 years ago I discovered the Bornoff finger patterns when I was studying the fiddle and mandolin. At their core, each pattern represents the four basic 1-string modal tetrachords with the span of a P4: ionian, dorian, phrygian, and "gypsy". Of course, cello and bassist must shift for each tetrachord. By studying 1-string tetrachords, and how to combine them to produce scales, has had a profound impact on my scale practice and playing overall.

Here are my (example: C to F) 1-string tetrachord fingerings:
Ionian: 1 4 -2 4
Dorian: 1 4 -1 4
Phrygian: 1 2 -1 4
Gypsy: 1 2 -2 4

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Umm ... of course the JSB cello suites impact everyone that studies them...mostly bass clef instrumentalists including tubist and trombonist, and violist, all of which I have witnessed when I was in music school.

Huy, 10 years ago I discovered the Bornoff finger patterns when I was studying the fiddle and mandolin. At their core, each pattern represents the four basic 1-string modal tetrachords with the span of a P4: ionian, dorian, phrygian, and "gypsy". Of course, cello and bassist must shift for each tetrachord. By studying 1-string tetrachords, and how to combine them to produce scales, has had a profound impact on my scale practice and playing overall.

Here are my (example: C to F) 1-string tetrachord fingerings:
Ionian: 1 4 -2 4
Dorian: 1 4 -1 4
Phrygian: 1 2 -1 4
Gypsy: 1 2 -2 4

Yeah those fingerings come pretty natural for me but I do like to sometimes shift 1-2 instead of 2-4 depending on the situation. There’s some things I like to do a little differently bc of bebop improv. Sometimes I will repeat a note but replace 1 with 4 or Vice Versa depending on the direction my line is going.

I’m also discovering and playing with more emphasis on chromatic scales/fragments, esp enclosures and passing tones so common in bebop. I think this is where typical scale use other styles that will be different with jazz. Esp where target notes are chord tones and the chromaticism is just part of the colorful journey getting to the resolution. It’s a lot easier to use hooked bowings to get all these sounds instead of plucking each of them. The challenge is to articulate each note clearly.

 

[stefaniw80401]

The challenge with 5ths tuning on bass, in my mind, are the cross-string intervals of 3rds and 2nds. Especially the major second, AKA whole-step, is critical for executing scalar fragments, like walking. In 5ths, cross string whole-step shift is huge.

But Red Mitchell seemed to get along fine in 5ths.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

The challenge with 5ths tuning on bass, in my mind, are the cross-string intervals of 3rds and 2nds. Especially the major second, AKA whole-step, is critical for executing scalar fragments, like walking. In 5ths, cross string whole-step shift is huge.

But Red Mitchell seemed to get along fine in 5ths.

I wrote about the tradeoffs earlier in the thread. For those of us who are doing the 5ths thing, the bias is more obvious. Remember that 5ths tuning is a mirror reflection of 4ths tuning. A prime example of this if when you play a root position arp for any major chord. The 3rd and 5th is on the higher adjacent string where the 3rd is on the next string and down a half step vs. the root. The mirror of this very same physical relationship results in a 1st inversion of the same chord but the 3rd is on the lower adjacent string. This is a massive difference when it comes to soloing and opens up the palette. You can play a high melodic line and then bring in lower notes to support it (3rds and 5ths). Also what this affords is that you can play 6ths with ease in 5ths tuning while in 4ths tuning its requires a stretch most people can't do.

My point here is the bias is different. While it makes walkups slightly harder, it makes dropping to arps in lower notes far far easier. Playing the 5th is easier and the 6th/13th is easy grap. But here's the big difference, I don't do a lot of walkups that much. Why? Most walking movements (per my playing style) i tend to walk down far more than I walk up. I tend to go for the 5th far more than the 3rd. The 3rds and roots become target notes of my walking, they're not always the first notes i'm reaching for.

In 4ths tuning, 10ths are very limited based on how far up you can go on the E string. in 5ths you can do the entire scale across two sets of strings.

But as several of us have observed, doing a shift to hit a minor 3rd/major 3rd is not a big deal. it's not a deal breaker. I would argue it does mean you do have to get your intonation together bc more shifting is involved. To that extent, if you fear shifting, 5ths is not for you. For the rest of us, you get over it. Never held Red back and I dont' think it's holding any of us back.

And there's lots and lots of other upsides I've already mentioned in this thread. The real price you pay is some of the stuff that is super easy in 4ths tuning, often classic hooks and ostinato basslines, are harder. But then things that were impossible or very hard in 4ths is suddenly easy or possible (the bassline to the Peanuts theme for example). It's all a tradeoff and depends on what you are willing to compromise.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

@stefaniw80401 i just tried to play Cello Suite 1 prelude on my fretless (which is tuned in 4ths) and it’s brutal. I had to look at other accomplished players doing it and they all play way up in TP. It’s 5 times harder in 4ths tuning than it is in 5ths tuning. Meanwhile in 5ths I’m playing lots of open strings at the nut. Heads like Take the A Train and Moose the Mooche are much easier in 5ths. Inner Urge is nearly impossible in 4ths unless I go up to TP. That’s where 5ths shine in comparison. Lots of heads are now accessible.

I’m sure playing rep made for 4ths in 5ths is gonna be hard.

 

[Wyzird05]

Made the switch to 5ths last night and it is a different animal. A few members of the local orchestra stopped by my daughter's preschool and she is in love with the cello. While gauging her interest for the last month I thought it might be easier for her to learn if we could work through a method book using the same finger patterns for at least a little while. The rental cello should be arriving in time for her spring break, so we will have a go at things.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Should be a good match bc she will have a small hand that will match you and the longer string length. After while she’ll outperform you tho.

Sounds like total fun to do with your kid.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

wow. Hard to believe it's already a little over 2 years in 5ths tuning. No regrets. It's so much fun with other ideas and extended techniques yet to be explored. Solo transcription is of Red's playing but in 1958 when he still in 4ths tuning.

 

[JBarz]

wow. Hard to believe it's already a little over 2 years in 5ths tuning. No regrets. It's so much fun with other ideas and extended techniques yet to be explored. Solo transcription is of Red's playing but in 1958 when he still in 4ths tuning.

Killin’ it, Huy!