All-tube amp advantages?

[lfmn16]

I don't get this supposed 'reliability' issue that keeps getting brought up about tube amps. In 45+ years of playing I've had three amp failures on stage and less than a dozen failures at rehearsals and home use. That's split about 50/50 between tube and solid state. Take care of your equipment, buy quality equipment, and you can use whatever you like.

 

[antonspon]

Just my personal opinion, based mainly on experience and gut-feel, with a side-order of electronics training: I think overall, tube amps have a longer operational lifetime and are very robust - both my amps, in daily use, date from the '60's, need little maintenance and are easy to trouble-shoot and fix, and this has been true of every tube amp I've owned (total of 5). For clean, clear punch, though, solid state (MOSFET) amps are the business: but they die eventually and are harder to repair - I've owned three, and all three failed me at gigs at various times. Tube amps also seem to give more warning of impending doom. But I truly wish the damn things didn't weigh so much!

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Well there you go. It's settled for me. I've been concerned as to whether or not my bass amp would still be working after a nuclear attack. I need to get me a tube amp just in case.

My concern as well. In the event of an EMP strike I need to be able to keep playing.

 

[el murdoque]

To answer the OP's question:

Let your ears decide that. Hook up the Fender or Ampeg you think of getting to a cab and play around with them.
Set the gain just at the threshold of saturation so when you play softly, you're clean and when you push, the saturation sets in. Feel the warmth. Now try something Class-D. Maybe a Tonehammer - I found they are quite tube-like.
Notice the Difference in how the notes ring?
That clarity right there within in the tube amps saturation and the slight compression?

No?
Well, congratulations! There's no need for you to buy a tube head. Buy a good class D alternative and take the difference to get a gym membership to make up for the fact that you'll be carrying an amp that's about as heavy as two books instead of a lead sled.

Yes?
Well, congratulations! Now you know why people lug 40kgs of vacuum tubes and transistors to every gig and back.

 

[Nine lives]

I know it goes against common think, but where is it written that tube amps are a must for guitar, at my instance the guitar player in my last band went from a Fender hot rod Deluxe to a Peavey Bandit SS amp. The Deluxe was having trouble making it through our heavy gig schedule, so I gave him my old Bandit, that was three years ago it always works, he sets it up clean and hits it with pedals. At a recent gig a guy came to the stage and told him how "great" he sounded, but why was he using THAT amp, his answer "you just said it sounded great" ...

 

[baxter_x]

To me, if you just want clean,no need for an all tube amp. If you want any kind of dirt or distorsion, it becomes necessary.

 

[smtp4me]

Don't mean to hijack the thread - I understand the differences between solid state and tube amps, but I do not understand the difference in price.

Are transistors really that much cheaper (exponentially cheaper) to manufacture than tubes? Or are the manufacturers simply charging more because they can, because consumers are willing to pay for it?

 

[baxter_x]

You can find SS amp that cost at least the same as an all tube amp.

 

[fdeck]

Don't mean to hijack the thread - I understand the differences between solid state and tube amps, but I do not understand the difference in price.

Are transistors really that much cheaper (exponentially cheaper) to manufacture than tubes? Or are the manufacturers simply charging more because they can, because consumers are willing to pay for it?

Yes, they are. There's also more massive power transformers, higher voltage components, and heavier chassis and enclosures.

Then there's demand. Pricing is not all about parts cost.

 

[ofajen]

I know it goes against common think, but where is it written that tube amps are a must for guitar but at my instance the guitar player in my last band went from a Fender hot rod Deluxe to a Peavey Bandit SS amp. The Deluxe was having trouble making it through our heavy gig schedule, so I gave him my old Bandit, that was three years ago it always works, he sets it up clean and hits it with pedals. At a recent gig a guy came to the stage and told him how "great" he sounded, but why was he using THAT amp, his answer "you just said it sounded great" ...

I'd agree that it's not generally required, though there are types of music and playing where a tube amp is pretty much the way to go. You get the right sound by default.

I've played both bass and guitar for over thirty years each. I had only SS amps in the earlier years and got plenty of great sounds on both.

These days I'm using old Traynor tube amps for both, but I wouldn't say it's strictly because they are tube amps. I just like everything about the way those amps work and sound. No one has mentioned it much, but I quite like the way the passive tone stack works on my YBA-1. It's rather different from an active eq.

I also like the dual inputs, one normal and one with boosted highs and the ability to patch them together.

The irony is, if I really want a distortion sound, I'm typically using a little SS distortion pedal of some kind anyway, except for those times when I just crank gain with a boost pedal and overload the tube amp front end.

Otto

 

[danosix]

OK. Apart from increased cost, weight and maintenance, and lower reliability, what are the actual tangible benefits of all-tube bass amp design that cannot be accurately reproduced in modern solid-state design?

Thanks in anticipation!

P.S. I'm looking for a really good reason to spring for a Bassman 100T... or V-4B...?

They sound the exactly like a tube amp.
Also, you get more "oomph" per watt because of the natural compression that tubes offer, so a 100Watt tube head can be a very gig-able head, whereas 100W SS usually is not.

 

[smtp4me]

Yes, they are. There's also more massive power transformers, higher voltage components, and heavier chassis and enclosures.

Then there's demand. Pricing is not all about parts cost.

Thanks for the reply. As an example (and only an example): I own a Gallien-Krueger MB200 (200 watt combo) that cost $400 new, one year ago. A Mesa Bass Prodigy Four:88 costs about $1900 for the head alone - no cab - and the Prodigy is 250 watts. That's about a 475% difference.

I realize the obvious answer is that if I think tube amps are over-priced, then simply don't buy one. I just find it very hard to believe the cost of parts and labor is even half of the $1900, and in this case the price is high simply because someone is willing to pay it.

 

[danosix]

Don't mean to hijack the thread - I understand the differences between solid state and tube amps, but I do not understand the difference in price.

Are transistors really that much cheaper (exponentially cheaper) to manufacture than tubes? Or are the manufacturers simply charging more because they can, because consumers are willing to pay for it?

Yes transistors are many times cheaper to manufacture - pennies vs. dollars -b/c they make far fewer tubes, they contain more material and far more fail pre-inspection.
Furthermore you need more (and more powerful) transformers in a tube amp of similar output (much less energy lost to heat in SS - no heaters to power) - this increases actual amplifier costs vastly and then increases the size of cabinet required and the cost of shipping by a good chunk. Add all that together and they end up much more expensive, so they make even fewer - which makes them more expensive again.

 

[danosix]

Thanks for the reply. As an example (and only an example): I own a Gallien-Krueger MB200 (200 watt combo) that cost $400 new, one year ago. A Mesa Bass Prodigy Four:88 costs about $1900 for the head alone - no cab - and the Prodigy is 250 watts. That's about a 475% difference.

I realize the obvious answer is that if I think tube amps are over-priced, then simply don't buy one. I just find it very hard to believe the cost of parts and labor is even half of the $1900, and in this case the price is high simply because someone is willing to pay it.

Well, you are right that a big part of the price of premium products is the "willingness to pay factor". But GK at its lower end is much more of a "mass-produced" product both in actual numbers made and in style of construction/choice of parts, while the Mesa is getting into boutique range - you can probably take a digit (or two) off the numbers produced of your MB before you are comparable with the numbers of the Mesa.

 

[danosix]

I know it goes against common think, but where is it written that tube amps are a must for guitar but at my instance the guitar player in my last band went from a Fender hot rod Deluxe to a Peavey Bandit SS amp. The Deluxe was having trouble making it through our heavy gig schedule, so I gave him my old Bandit, that was three years ago it always works, he sets it up clean and hits it with pedals. At a recent gig a guy came to the stage and told him how "great" he sounded, but why was he using THAT amp, his answer "you just said it sounded great" ...

That's an AWESOME story - just shows you that even when people seemingly are hearing objectively ("you sound great") they are still listening with their eyes ("why are you using THAT amp?").
I have only gone through a few amps over the years and in two cases it was for non-sound related reasons (once to go small - should have stayed that way), once for the very shallow, "this one looks much cooler" reason (though I do genuinely like my sound with the later over the former) but my old man has gone through many dozens of (if not several hundred) amps through the years, but the thing is - he ALWAYS sounds great, whether he's playing through bandits, a Vibro-King (my personal favourite of all the guitar amps I've played/hear) or a $3400 Victoria. While there absolutely differences (especially if one was to compare amp to amp) if you are careful about your sound, and play well, the differences will be nominal and frankly inaudible at band levels.
Conversely, I've played with guys who had great equipment (full tube Marshall stacks, fi) who always sounded kinda crappy because they weren't using their equipment well.

 

[Alexander]

The sound you get from a quality tube amp pushed to that "sweet spot" where it starts to overdrive is, to me, the ULTIMATE rock tone - for guitar OR bass. Solid state amps will not do this. Maybe you can get some grind out of a SS preamp or throw a pedal in the mix to kinda-sorta get there. But it ain't the same. It just ain't.

OP, you mention the V4B and it is absolutely my favorite bass amp of all time. The biggest advantage with that amp is that I can hit the sweet spot at a volume that is just perfect for my band. It has performed flawlessly for a few years now despite being lugged back and forth everywhere. It's around 40 pounds - about the same as any guitar combo amp or PA speaker I've moved around, so in the overall context of performing with a live band - it's not much.

Let's just say when things are cookin' onstage and I got my 58 Precision -> V4B -> Ampeg stack behind me... I sure ain't thinkin about how I had to lug it in from the car!

 

[bebass]

I don't think there is a reliability issue. But there IS a maintenance issue. No one speaks of "I need to get my weak transistors replaced" in my amp. But I do agree with reliability from a quality design/manufacturing/quality components standpoint.
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I love all amps and to my ears each of them have their strengths and weaknesses. It has been a very long time since I thought tubes were "better" in bass amps. And now, even in guitar amps I don't think they are "better". In fact IMO SS is "better" in terms of not adding stress to one's back. But I have no problems with bass tube amps as far as sound goes. And if I have roadies I may or may not use one at any specific time.

I would even say the cab makes far more difference than tube or SS. I see all these arguments about tube versus SS and almost never see the CAB differential enter into the equation. When IMO it really is the single most important aspect as a differential when comparing bass amp setups. Putting either a tube amp or a SS amp in front of a non-optimized acoustical response cab can make ANY amp sound "not right" to our ears. I see a whole lot of people buying amps left and right but always using a cab that they have by circumstance acquired, and saying that they didn't like the particular amp - yet not evaluating the difference that cabs can make.

And I always come back to the field of psycho-acoustics. I would really love to have the funds to do a bass amp study where I put tube amps and SS amps behind a curtain and evaluated at least as many responses as these threads get as to which amp is SS and which is tube as well as which sounds "better". I think the results would freak out the fans of each. If we believe that something is going to sound great - the statistical majority of the time it does sound great. And vice versa; if we believe an amp is going to sound bad then it probably will, to our ears.

 

[Honch]

As I don't think the difference between SS and Tube matters as much on bass amps as they do on guitar and guitar amps, there's a difference still. However, when playing small combos that is made for lugging around without much effort, I think it's kind of - these days - pointless with both preamp and poweramp tubes, and - say - a ferro speaker. If you should go a 1x12 combo anyway I think it's best to use some kind of SS or class D switching amp couple with some neo-speaker.

I think that if you want tube power amp sound for bass, you should go that Ampeg VT route with 8x10 anyway, because it's a b*tch to lug around. I think the advantages in sound from all tubes just displays itself at loud volume levels. For most bass - this is a pure personal taste opinions - I can get a little put off by the sometimes induced compression and limiting that tubes makes when cranked. For bass...it's a bit .. meh... but on electric guitar such traits are crucial. And of course, that much distortion doesn't lend itself too much to the lowest frequencies. You loose bass, simple as that.

 

[Gospel Bass Player]

Tube amps generally have a presence that is not as inherent in solid-state amps. This is probably more apparent when comparing tube and solid state guitar amps, but it's also a difference, albeit with a smaller effect, when comparing tube and solid state bass amps. Also, tube amps - particularly if they are a quality tube amp - are generally more three-dimensional than solid state amps. That is to say that tube amps, on whole, are usually more harmonically complex.

With all that said, I don't think that tube amps are automatically "better" than solid state amps. I have a number of all-tube amps, but I also have solid state amps that are great as well. I'm just into great sounding amps.

I think that GK has done a great job with the "valve effect" in their solid state amps. I have a 1001RB -I and a 700RB-II, and both have a very warm, round, phat, articulate bass sound that just sizzles. GBP

 

[Hambone 70]

The sound you get from a quality tube amp pushed to that "sweet spot" where it starts to overdrive is, to me, the ULTIMATE rock tone - for guitar OR bass. Solid state amps will not do this. Maybe you can get some grind out of a SS preamp or throw a pedal in the mix to kinda-sorta get there. But it ain't the same. It just ain't.

OP, you mention the V4B and it is absolutely my favorite bass amp of all time. The biggest advantage with that amp is that I can hit the sweet spot at a volume that is just perfect for my band. It has performed flawlessly for a few years now despite being lugged back and forth everywhere. It's around 40 pounds - about the same as any guitar combo amp or PA speaker I've moved around, so in the overall context of performing with a live band - it's not much.

Let's just say when things are cookin' onstage and I got my 58 Precision -> V4B -> Ampeg stack behind me... I sure ain't thinkin about how I had to lug it in from the car!

I suppose the 25 watt setting on the 100T lets you achieve that "sweet spot" at a lower volume.