All-tube amp advantages?

[fdeck]

I don't think there is a reliability issue. But there IS a maintenance issue. No one speaks of "I need to get my weak transistors replaced" in my amp. But I do agree with reliability from a quality design/manufacturing/quality components standpoint.

To be fair, with older solid state amps, people do speak of: "That transistor isn't made any more," or even "I can't get the schematic." An advantage of tubes from the standpoint of long term maintenance is that the designs themselves are relatively simple -- there maybe at most a half dozen truly unique design topologies -- and the design of the tubes themselves hasn't changed in decades.

I've played solid state since about 1980, and over that time frame, the greatest threat to my amps has been obsolescence, not maintenance. I'm sure my first solid state amp, a Peavey Centurion, is still chugging along somewhere, all 65 Watts of it. My latest round of amp purchases was driven by the "micro" revolution.

 

[danosix]

I don't think there is a reliability issue. But there IS a maintenance issue. No one speaks of "I need to get my weak transistors replaced" in my amp. But I do agree with reliability from a quality design/manufacturing/quality components standpoint.
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I love all amps and to my ears each of them have their strengths and weaknesses. It has been a very long time since I thought tubes were "better" in bass amps. And now, even in guitar amps I don't think they are "better". In fact IMO SS is "better" in terms of not adding stress to one's back. But I have no problems with bass tube amps as far as sound goes. And if I have roadies I may or may not use one at any specific time.

I would even say the cab makes far more difference than tube or SS. I see all these arguments about tube versus SS and almost never see the CAB differential enter into the equation. When IMO it really is the single most important aspect as a differential when comparing bass amp setups. Putting either a tube amp or a SS amp in front of a non-optimized acoustical response cab can make ANY amp sound "not right" to our ears. I see a whole lot of people buying amps left and right but always using a cab that they have by circumstance acquired, and saying that they didn't like the particular amp - yet not evaluating the difference that cabs can make.

And I always come back to the field of psycho-acoustics. I would really love to have the funds to do a bass amp study where I put tube amps and SS amps behind a curtain and evaluated at least as many responses as these threads get as to which amp is SS and which is tube as well as which sounds "better". I think the results would freak out the fans of each. If we believe that something is going to sound great - the statistical majority of the time it does sound great. And vice versa; if we believe an amp is going to sound bad then it probably will, to our ears.

I totally agree with you comment about cabinets.
The amp I used for years was sufficient and sounded okay, but I blew the speaker and replaced it with the closest replacement available (which was quite different) and never quite liked it the same after that. Eventually I sold the whole thing, thinking I didn't like the amp - and got a new amp which I loved. A couple of years later I played the little brother (combo) version of the same same amp and it sounded GREAT - nearly (not quite) the tone I "hear in my head". The fact was, the combo had a cab and driver that were well matched to each other and to the head and the sound was exactly what it should have been (that classic Fender sound - if you like it, it's wonderful), warm, punchy, good. With the wrong cabinet and driver, bland, boring, kinda dead.

 

[baxter_x]

Just in case you guys might be interested I recently compared all of the big amp competitors on the market.
ost of them were SS amp, but the SVT 2 was also there:
Bass amp, the big shootout!

 

[bebass]

To be fair, with older solid state amps, people do speak of: "That transistor isn't made any more," or even "I can't get the schematic." An advantage of tubes from the standpoint of long term maintenance is that the designs themselves are relatively simple -- there maybe at most a half dozen truly unique design topologies -- and the design of the tubes themselves hasn't changed in decades.

I've played solid state since about 1980, and over that time frame, the greatest threat to my amps has been obsolescence, not maintenance. I'm sure my first solid state amp, a Peavey Centurion, is still chugging along somewhere, all 65 Watts of it. My latest round of amp purchases was driven by the "micro" revolution.

A valid point. I had a big name brand SS guitar amp that crapped out and I tried to send it in to the manufacturer to get repaired. Their response was to get a new one as it was irreparable.
I did work as an amp tech back in the early 80s and I saw just as many SS amps as tube amps as far as repair goes. But of course replaced more tubes as a maintenance.

 

[danosix]

Well, since any propoer guitar player will be running a tube amp, they were safe, so we never including them in strategic planning. Bass players, on the other hand... And don't get me started about key players - those guys were *screwed*!

Not if they're playing hammonds!

 

[danosix]

"Given enough programming, digital modelling will one day be able to achieve what has been being done for 40 years with tubes" isn't really a boast. Especially when you consider the chances of such gear still working and being maintainable in 40 years time.

You're kidding right?
First: will be equal is not the same as IS equal.
Second: you honestly think that anything computer-y like a modelling amp will be running (and maintainable) in 40 years? Try getting parts for nearly ANYTHING digital from even 20 years ago.

 

[Alexander]

I suppose the 25 watt setting on the 100T lets you achieve that "sweet spot" at a lower volume.

Yep - I suppose so, although I usually adjust for volume with my cabinet choice. I didn't like 100T personally, but loved the Super Bassman.

 

[MobileHolmes]

I know it goes against common think, but where is it written that tube amps are a must for guitar but at my instance the guitar player in my last band went from a Fender hot rod Deluxe to a Peavey Bandit SS amp. The Deluxe was having trouble making it through our heavy gig schedule, so I gave him my old Bandit, that was three years ago it always works, he sets it up clean and hits it with pedals. At a recent gig a guy came to the stage and told him how "great" he sounded, but why was he using THAT amp, his answer "you just said it sounded great" ...

I think that's fair. BB king, Andy summers and Dimebag all made careers
Playing solid state amps. And if your guitar player gets a sound he likes, more power to him. Personally, I haven't played many I dig. But I'm no purist. My hamfisted guitar playing is through a SS OD pedal into a tube amp

 

[danosix]

Not to pick a fight or put too a fine point on it, but isn't electricity induced buy the movement of the metal string over the magnetic pickup? That electric signal is then fed into an electric "amplifier" which amplifies it (by drawing electricity from a socket or battery), but the initial signal must still be electric in order for the amplifier to amplify it, right? I know this is not my wheelhouse, so I'd like to better understand what I might be misunderstanding.

What they are really saying is that the interaction between the instrument/pickup and the amp/cabinet is all integral to the sound and feel of the instrument.
It would be a totally different instrument if the signal was simply being amplified - ie only made louder.
Think of any time you've been forced to plug in to a PA without any amplifier emulation - if it's never happened to you it's a VERY different experience (and not a very pleasant one).

 

[peterpalmieri]

I like my V4b reissue enough that I am willing to carry it to most gigs over a smaller, lighter more convenient option. I also prefer my Jule Monique tube preamp on no amp gigs more then a small phantom powered DI box. I also play a 13lb. giant mahogoney bodied bass that requires a stool for 3 set gigs and I will drag my upright out for a few songs even if I'm not playing it on the majority of the gig.

That's all my choice because I want things to sound a certain way, I love music and it's one of the few places in life where I don't need to compromise. We all make our own decisions and there really is no reason to talk other folks into why your or my decisions are better or more valid then someone else's.

 

[spiritbass]

I like my V4b reissue enough that I am willing to carry it to most gigs over a smaller, lighter more convenient option. I also prefer my Jule Monique tube preamp on no amp gigs more then a small phantom powered DI box. I also play a 13lb. giant mahogoney bodied bass that requires a stool for 3 set gigs and I will drag my upright out for a few songs even if I'm not playing it on the majority of the gig.

That's all my choice because I want things to sound a certain way, I love music and it's one of the few places in life where I don't need to compromise. We all make our own decisions and there really is no reason to talk other folks into why your or my decisions are better or more valid then someone else's.

Amen to no compromises. I also agree with your last sentence. A sane and healthy approach to life in general is to realize this truth. There is a very low probability of anyone actually changing their mind due to one's posting their opinions on the internet anyway...

 

[seamonkey]

The origin of "All Tube" could date back to the late 70's early 80's where instead of plugging in a fuzz box someone got the idea to add an extra tube in the pre-amp to allow the heads to distort themselves. No longer an amp with a fuzz box, it was now an "All tube" amp.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

OK. Apart from increased cost, weight and maintenance, and lower reliability, what are the actual tangible benefits of all-tube bass amp design that cannot be accurately reproduced in modern solid-state design?

Thanks in anticipation!

P.S. I'm looking for a really good reason to spring for a Bassman 100T... or V-4B...?

I'm really going to generalize, but IMO an all tube bass amp gives the lowest notes a slight softness and the highest notes a warmth that I've yet to find in a hydrid or solid state bass amp. Also, an all tube bass amp reacts to how you attack your strings with greater effect, depending on how you have the amp's gain(s) set, and when pushed into distortion, an all tube bass amp does this a lot more gracefully.

 

[Deleted member 165050]

You're kidding right?
First: will be equal is not the same as IS equal.
Second: you honestly think that anything computer-y like a modelling amp will be running (and maintainable) in 40 years? Try getting parts for nearly ANYTHING digital from even 20 years ago.

Good point! Easier to maintain a 50 year old tube amp than anything leading edge digital once the leading edge has left it behind...

 

[Gaolee]

To be fair, with older solid state amps, people do speak of: "That transistor isn't made any more," or even "I can't get the schematic." An advantage of tubes from the standpoint of long term maintenance is that the designs themselves are relatively simple -- there maybe at most a half dozen truly unique design topologies -- and the design of the tubes themselves hasn't changed in decades.

I've played solid state since about 1980, and over that time frame, the greatest threat to my amps has been obsolescence, not maintenance. I'm sure my first solid state amp, a Peavey Centurion, is still chugging along somewhere, all 65 Watts of it. My latest round of amp purchases was driven by the "micro" revolution.

Absolutely. I have been playing through Acoustic Control equipment for more than 35 years. Transistors may or may not last longer than tubes. I don't know. The difference is that most of the tubes ever used in amps are still made. Not all of the old transistors are still made or available. Transistors seem to last forever, and I have only had one transistor that needed to be replaced in one amp (out of I'm not sure how many owned), but that one transistor was obsolete and the tech had to figure out a substitute. It worked fine and I use that amp on a regular basis and have for the last five years. But, I'm not sure it will always work that way, nor do I know if there will always be a tech around who has the patience, determination, and skill to figure it out.

In the unlikely event that my old 360 ever needs much of anything, I'm going to be devastated if it can't be fixed. I don't care how heavy it is.

Class D amps seem to be disposable black boxes. I don't know how long they will last. Maybe they won't ever need repairs, so it won't matter. I have one, so I hope that turns out to be how it goes.

 

[fdeck]

Absolutely. I have been playing through Acoustic Control equipment for more than 35 years. Transistors may or may not last longer than tubes. I don't know. The difference is that most of the tubes ever used in amps are still made. Not all of the old transistors are still made or available. Transistors seem to last forever, and I have only had one transistor that needed to be replaced in one amp (out of I'm not sure how many owned), but that one transistor was obsolete and the tech had to figure out a substitute. It worked fine and I use that amp on a regular basis and have for the last five years. But, I'm not sure it will always work that way, nor do I know if there will always be a tech around who has the patience, determination, and skill to figure it out.

In the unlikely event that my old 360 ever needs much of anything, I'm going to be devastated if it can't be fixed. I don't care how heavy it is.

Class D amps seem to be disposable black boxes. I don't know how long they will last. Maybe they won't ever need repairs, so it won't matter. I have one, so I hope that turns out to be how it goes.

When I learned electronics, the teacher stressed the idea of designing circuits that are relatively insensitive to variation in component parameters. Designers also had a sense of components that were likely to be available long-term from multiple suppliers, such as the 2N3055 transistor and TL07x op amp family. If your Acoustic amps were designed with that mentality, they may be serviceable for a long time.

I haven't done a huge number of component level amp repairs, but I suspect that bipolar transistors in Class-AB power amps are easier to substitute than the MOSFETs in a typical Class-D power amp.

Perhaps a greater issue with repairability is that good techs are a dying breed. There's too little money in gear repair, when the same skill set can be applied towards repairing industrial or commercial equipment where a replacement unit could cost a million bucks. Anybody who doesn't live in a town with a good tech is condemned to shipping their amp somewhere. That could render an amp unrepairable in practical terms.

I'm at peace that my Class-D amps are at risk of being unrepairable by me. One minor advantage of solid state amps is that you're forced to seek your tone somewhere other than the power amp circuit. For this reason, I don't need to get emotionally attached to a bass amp any more.

 

[Mr. Foxen]

Really? I've got a couple amps with tube preamps and I don't sense any significant limitations.

You'll get the limitations when you want stuff like multiband graphic or parametric eq or any other features needing more than a dozen or so gain stages. Or very linear response in the eq. Or a pre that is very small and has a broad feature set.

 

[Gaolee]

When I learned electronics, the teacher stressed the idea of designing circuits that are relatively insensitive to variation in component parameters. Designers also had a sense of components that were likely to be available long-term from multiple suppliers, such as the 2N3055 transistor and TL07x op amp family. If your Acoustic amps were designed with that mentality, they may be serviceable for a long time.

I haven't done a huge number of component level amp repairs, but I suspect that bipolar transistors in Class-AB power amps are easier to substitute than the MOSFETs in a typical Class-D power amp.

Perhaps a greater issue with repairability is that good techs are a dying breed. There's too little money in gear repair, when the same skill set can be applied towards repairing industrial or commercial equipment where a replacement unit could cost a million bucks. Anybody who doesn't live in a town with a good tech is condemned to shipping their amp somewhere. That could render an amp unrepairable in practical terms.

I'm at peace that my Class-D amps are at risk of being unrepairable by me. One minor advantage of solid state amps is that you're forced to seek your tone somewhere other than the power amp circuit. For this reason, I don't need to get emotionally attached to a bass amp any more.

It's only the 1968 360 that I have an attachment to at this point. I like the new one, but I'm pretty sure it has a black box type power section anyway. I could probably just wire up another power section if that ever goes off. No problems. As far as component repairs are concerned, I'm 100% incompetent and unknowledgeable about how to do electronic repairs. I can solder up a guitar wiring harness and do some minor electronic stuff like modding pedals or small amps from a kit and a schematic, but anything that requires actual knowledge and skill is beyond my capability.

 

[Mr. Foxen]

Dropping a class D power module into an ailing old Acoustic is pretty doable. Option I have in mind for when I want silly power without being very heavy but still have the vintage stage vibe.

 

[JimmyM]

You'll get the limitations when you want stuff like multiband graphic or parametric eq or any other features needing more than a dozen or so gain stages. Or very linear response in the eq. Or a pre that is very small and has a broad feature set.

You're saying hybrids and tube amps don't have multiband graphics or parametric EQ's? Hmmm...

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