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Hey!!
Sorry, wrong Damon.
I'm with you. i played dinner music tonight, as a matter of fact. We got seriously in the zone a couple of times over the course of the evening, which is just as should be. I wouldn't change a thing.
Sorry, wrong Damon.
I'm with you. i played dinner music tonight, as a matter of fact. We got seriously in the zone a couple of times over the course of the evening, which is just as should be. I wouldn't change a thing.
Moi aussi dudes. If the players are happening, then the music is happening and if they're not, then why subject yourself to that kind of torment? It's all about intent!
Well I apologise if I have upset anybody's delicate sensibilities...
Aas I said before - I can see two sides to this and we were asked to comment on the article, which is no doubt humorous, but has a grain of truth in it - which is why it has sparked a debate!
I went to Jazz Summerschool a few weeks ago and there was a fair mix of older "hobbyists" if you like, who have other jobs etc. and youngsters who are hoping to make a career out of music at some point and then there are the tutors, who are the people I know (some quite well) who are making a living out of music and Jazz.
The question is where are the future audience and players going to come from and what will they do..?
I feel that you need to excite a future generation - of both audience members and potential players and this is what those tutors do - by presenting challenging and interesting music coupled with great musicianship.
I know a lot of people who are excited by live music and want to see more of it - and Jazz gives them something that isn't coming out of "popular music" nowdays, where a lot of it is programmed music or manufactured boy and girl bands with zero spontaneity!
I was enthused by the SummerSchool - seeing youngsters of 17 - 21 excited by the possibilities of Jazz - maybe that's what has coloured my view in this debate and again I apologise if am too excited by live Jazz....
Aas I said before - I can see two sides to this and we were asked to comment on the article, which is no doubt humorous, but has a grain of truth in it - which is why it has sparked a debate!
I went to Jazz Summerschool a few weeks ago and there was a fair mix of older "hobbyists" if you like, who have other jobs etc. and youngsters who are hoping to make a career out of music at some point and then there are the tutors, who are the people I know (some quite well) who are making a living out of music and Jazz.
The question is where are the future audience and players going to come from and what will they do..?
I feel that you need to excite a future generation - of both audience members and potential players and this is what those tutors do - by presenting challenging and interesting music coupled with great musicianship.
I know a lot of people who are excited by live music and want to see more of it - and Jazz gives them something that isn't coming out of "popular music" nowdays, where a lot of it is programmed music or manufactured boy and girl bands with zero spontaneity!
I was enthused by the SummerSchool - seeing youngsters of 17 - 21 excited by the possibilities of Jazz - maybe that's what has coloured my view in this debate and again I apologise if am too excited by live Jazz....
Well I apologise if I have upset anybody's delicate sensibilities...
Aas I said before - I can see two sides to this and we were asked to comment on the article, which is no doubt humorous, but has a grain of truth in it - which is why it has sparked a debate!
I went to Jazz Summerschool a few weeks ago and there was a fair mix of older "hobbyists" if you like, who have other jobs etc. and youngsters who are hoping to make a career out of music at some point and then there are the tutors, who are the people I know (some quite well) who are making a living out of music and Jazz.
The question is where are the future audience and players going to come from and what will they do..?
I feel that you need to excite a future generation - of both audience members and potential players and this is what those tutors do - by presenting challenging and interesting music coupled with great musicianship.
I know a lot of people who are excited by live music and want to see more of it - and Jazz gives them something that isn't coming out of "popular music" nowdays, where a lot of it is programmed music or manufactured boy and girl bands with zero spontaneity!
I was enthused by the SummerSchool - seeing youngsters of 17 - 21 excited by the possibilities of Jazz - maybe that's what has coloured my view in this debate and again I apologise if am too excited by live Jazz....
Well, I was at Bude Jazz Festival this weekend and there was a young band that sure was exciting but as music it was bo***cks.
Any names - I might know them or you might be talking about another TB'er!!??
PS - I just googled the line up for 2009 and the only name I recognised was Alan Barnes - but then this kind of thing is not really my "cup of tea" :
"BIG BEAR STOMPERS with JUDY EAMES Exciting 9-piece playing in the style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole Jazzband and the 1940s revivalist Lu Watters Yerba Buena Band. (Tues,Weds)"
Well I apologise if I have upset anybody's delicate sensibilities...
Aas I said before - I can see two sides to this and we were asked to comment on the article, which is no doubt humorous, but has a grain of truth in it - which is why it has sparked a debate!
I went to Jazz Summerschool a few weeks ago and there was a fair mix of older "hobbyists" if you like, who have other jobs etc. and youngsters who are hoping to make a career out of music at some point and then there are the tutors, who are the people I know (some quite well) who are making a living out of music and Jazz.
The question is where are the future audience and players going to come from and what will they do..?
I feel that you need to excite a future generation - of both audience members and potential players and this is what those tutors do - by presenting challenging and interesting music coupled with great musicianship.
I know a lot of people who are excited by live music and want to see more of it - and Jazz gives them something that isn't coming out of "popular music" nowdays, where a lot of it is programmed music or manufactured boy and girl bands with zero spontaneity!
I was enthused by the SummerSchool - seeing youngsters of 17 - 21 excited by the possibilities of Jazz - maybe that's what has coloured my view in this debate and again I apologise if am too excited by live Jazz....
Bruce we've been saying all along that EVEN WHEN IT'S A "DINNER JAZZ" GIG WE TRY TO BRING EVERYTHING WE HAVE TO IT. Nobody said well I play the clubs in front of an engaged audience I give 100%, but when I play a dinner gig I just phone it in.
Have you ever listened to the Bill Evans album "Waltz for Debby" or "Sundays at the Village Vanguard"? If you have you'll hear that they are playing "dinner jazz" the people are eating and talking while these guys are making amazing music. That album has shaped my concept on how to play no matter the crowd. I'm no Scott LaFaro and I'll never play with someone like Bill Evans, but I'll try to give as much as they did on that gig every time I go out and play.
Maybe you don't get that giving 100% could also involve being appropriate to the venue, something you need to consider at times. We all have said over and over that we take what we do seriously and give 100% no matter what. You've had this black and white stance about it and kept prattling on about "art" and "dinner jazz" and how it's giving people an impression of jazz being dull. The thing you don't see is that for some people, maybe that's the only jazz they'll get exposed to, maybe they actually chose the restaurant because of the music.
Well I can see your point and I own both the Bill Evans albums you mention and am well aware of the noises in the background.
But you are still ignoring the point, that I am saying there are 2 sides to this.
As a Jazz fan and regular gig-goer - I will be looking for exciting and interesting Jazz, that is not scared of upsetting people's expectations and disturbing their dinner!
That's my preference and no matter what you say - it's my taste in music and as a fan that's important to me.
Do I care if great musicians are ignored - well maybe - but that's their choice and people have to make a living - just don't expect me to like it..?
Last night I was talking to the guitarist in the band I play with regularly, who makes all of his living from music - I was asking him how he gets on and he said he hadn't had a "proper" job for 10 years - which is great - he meant a non-musical one!
I was thinking that one of my options at the moment would be to take voluntary early retirement and a fair lump sum, to go and do music full-time - it seems an atractive option...
But then I thought that I probably haven't got the right temperament - I just wouldn't be able to do whatever came my way without arguing,complaining, commenting or being grumpy if I didn't like what we were playing!
So this is probably my loss!!
But you are still ignoring the point, that I am saying there are 2 sides to this.
As a Jazz fan and regular gig-goer - I will be looking for exciting and interesting Jazz, that is not scared of upsetting people's expectations and disturbing their dinner!
That's my preference and no matter what you say - it's my taste in music and as a fan that's important to me.
Do I care if great musicians are ignored - well maybe - but that's their choice and people have to make a living - just don't expect me to like it..?
Last night I was talking to the guitarist in the band I play with regularly, who makes all of his living from music - I was asking him how he gets on and he said he hadn't had a "proper" job for 10 years - which is great - he meant a non-musical one!
I was thinking that one of my options at the moment would be to take voluntary early retirement and a fair lump sum, to go and do music full-time - it seems an atractive option...
But then I thought that I probably haven't got the right temperament - I just wouldn't be able to do whatever came my way without arguing,complaining, commenting or being grumpy if I didn't like what we were playing!
So this is probably my loss!!
Any names - I might know them or you might be talking about another TB'er!!??
PS - I just googled the line up for 2009 and the only name I recognised was Alan Barnes - but then this kind of thing is not really my "cup of tea" :
"BIG BEAR STOMPERS with JUDY EAMES Exciting 9-piece playing in the style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole Jazzband and the 1940s revivalist Lu Watters Yerba Buena Band. (Tues,Weds)"
You don't like Alan Barnes - what's not to like?
No offence to TBer because the band in question didn't have a DB, nor incidentally do the BB Stompers - they're quite good really if you like that sort of thing - I don't, but a hardworking 9-piece playing jazz shouldn't be eeked at.
No I do like Alan Barnes and have seen him play- I was saying the kind of thing after I said that, was not to my taste - although I didn't recognise any of the names...?
But have you heard him play? This may be your problem, Bruce - have the batteries run out?
Well I can see your point and I own both the Bill Evans albums you mention and am well aware of the noises in the background.
But you are still ignoring the point, that I am saying there are 2 sides to this.
As a Jazz fan and regular gig-goer - I will be looking for exciting and interesting Jazz, that is not scared of upsetting people's expectations and disturbing their dinner!
That's my preference and no matter what you say - it's my taste in music and as a fan that's important to me.
Do I care if great musicians are ignored - well maybe - but that's their choice and people have to make a living - just don't expect me to like it..?
Last night I was talking to the guitarist in the band I play with regularly, who makes all of his living from music - I was asking him how he gets on and he said he hadn't had a "proper" job for 10 years - which is great - he meant a non-musical one!
I was thinking that one of my options at the moment would be to take voluntary early retirement and a fair lump sum, to go and do music full-time - it seems an atractive option...
But then I thought that I probably haven't got the right temperament - I just wouldn't be able to do whatever came my way without arguing,complaining, commenting or being grumpy if I didn't like what we were playing!
So this is probably my loss!!
I can't disagree with your taste and that's not what I disagree with. The problem is that you express your taste and opinion as a fact, that all guys playing "dinner jazz" are a liability to the art form. You sir fail to see the other side of the coin, which is why I mentioned the hobbyist point, just to point out that you can have the luxury of not playing "dinner jazz" and still pay rent. You shouldn't judge a musician if they play a gig you might not do without trying to understand their situation. And you shouldn't dismiss the music without trying to know the intent of the players.
That's all I'm trying to say, it's not so black and white. Nothing is.
And I have never judged anybody for what they do - I am just describing my own musical tastes!
All I am saying is that no matter how noble the intention of the player - that is not going to influence whether or not I like the music produced!
All I am saying is that no matter how noble the intention of the player - that is not going to influence whether or not I like the music produced!
And I have never judged anybody for what they do - I am just describing my own musical tastes!
All I am saying is that no matter how noble the intention of the player - that is not going to influence whether or not I like the music produced!
That is fine, but you did state rather openly a harsh opinion based on that taste. What ever happened to "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"?
And you DID make a value judgment based on your taste.
Am I not allowed opinions - the OP invited opinions on the article - this thread would not exist without opinions!
I would like you to quote the exact post you are talking about there - unless you can do this, then I would maintain that I have done nother more heinous, than express my opinion!
Didn't folks watch the video. Reality is subjective as it is created by the existence of the action being perceived as well as the perception of it.
ergo there is only opinion, fact is subjective.
ergo there is only opinion, fact is subjective.
1. The original article was an incisive, brilliant bit of comedy from a guy who is clearly from the jazz trenches. The fact that some people don't seem to realize that indicates how close to home he was. No need to get defensive if you superficially fit one of the categories. It wasn't psychoanalysis, he was making a joke. Lighten up.
2. You can make ANY gig a good gig if the players are good. I had a four night per week "dinner" gig that lasted almost 5 years from early 1999 to late 2003. The band was a loose conglomeration of about 10 of the better players in Pittsburgh in trio, quartet or quintet form and I booked it so I was on most of the gigs. I quickly figured out that you could literally play anything you wanted as long as you didn't get too loud.
One of the more extreme examples was one night we had two tenors, bass and drums and played 6 tunes over 4 hours. At times the two tenors, playing simultaneously, were making what sounded like bird noises for up to 10 minutes at a time. It was pretty outside at times and seriously great. There was just enough framing around it that it wasn't free jazz. It still had a pulse and sounded like jazz. This was early in our run and I was sure that we were going to get fired. After we were done, I went down to talk to the manager and he loved it. He said, "I'm starting to see what you are trying to do." I have no idea if he actually heard a note we played but the vibe worked for him. It also didn't take a genius to figure out that what saved us was we kept the volume low. The intensity was there, we just didn't blow it out. After that we had theme nights where we'd only play Wayne Shorter Blue Note tunes or Coltrane night or Cedar Walton night etc. Other nights we only played original music. The sky was the limit. It was a terrific low pressure setting to try stuff out. I learned more tunes on that gig than any other time in my career. One night we read down RTF's Song of the Pharoah Kings (with a low volume acoustic jazz quartet!) which is an extremely difficult black page in 11. We got through it but there is no way I'd try that on a more exposed gig.
While I much prefer playing concerts for thousands of screaming fans, the reality is I play "the most hated music in America" as one of my jazz guitarist friends puts it (he also calls it "jazz-the music of unemployment.") I take what I can get. As long as the other musicians are good, the place we play is of only minor consequence.
mark
2. You can make ANY gig a good gig if the players are good. I had a four night per week "dinner" gig that lasted almost 5 years from early 1999 to late 2003. The band was a loose conglomeration of about 10 of the better players in Pittsburgh in trio, quartet or quintet form and I booked it so I was on most of the gigs. I quickly figured out that you could literally play anything you wanted as long as you didn't get too loud.
One of the more extreme examples was one night we had two tenors, bass and drums and played 6 tunes over 4 hours. At times the two tenors, playing simultaneously, were making what sounded like bird noises for up to 10 minutes at a time. It was pretty outside at times and seriously great. There was just enough framing around it that it wasn't free jazz. It still had a pulse and sounded like jazz. This was early in our run and I was sure that we were going to get fired. After we were done, I went down to talk to the manager and he loved it. He said, "I'm starting to see what you are trying to do." I have no idea if he actually heard a note we played but the vibe worked for him. It also didn't take a genius to figure out that what saved us was we kept the volume low. The intensity was there, we just didn't blow it out. After that we had theme nights where we'd only play Wayne Shorter Blue Note tunes or Coltrane night or Cedar Walton night etc. Other nights we only played original music. The sky was the limit. It was a terrific low pressure setting to try stuff out. I learned more tunes on that gig than any other time in my career. One night we read down RTF's Song of the Pharoah Kings (with a low volume acoustic jazz quartet!) which is an extremely difficult black page in 11. We got through it but there is no way I'd try that on a more exposed gig.
While I much prefer playing concerts for thousands of screaming fans, the reality is I play "the most hated music in America" as one of my jazz guitarist friends puts it (he also calls it "jazz-the music of unemployment.") I take what I can get. As long as the other musicians are good, the place we play is of only minor consequence.
mark
