Alternate fingers or raking does it really matter?

[Muzoid]

yeah... well honestly jamerson raked.. jaco racked.. victor rakes...marcus rakes... all these bass heroes used it ... it must be good for something

to each his own... There is no "right or wrong" IMO... its purely subjective and based on personal experience....

But im going to try to work on my strict alternating for sure... it cant hurt me

+1

Knowing how to do both well, and when to...is the way to go IMO.

 

[HaVIC5]

As somebody who has dueled with JimmyM in the past on the issue of rake vs. SA and has obsessed over it for a long time, I can safely say I'm not new to the issue. And as somebody who has spent a long number of hours dedicated to specifically practicing the ins and outs of SA vs. raking I can give my (and me and my alone's) definitive opinion on the subject.

Practice SA. Play whatever.

Practice the crap out of strictly alternating because it relies less on "reptilian," or subconcious instinct, and taps a much different part of the brain and the fingers. Practice it because it's more difficult, and practice being able to do string skips, fast sixteenth note lines, intricate jazz arpeggio work, etc by alternating every time between index finger and middle finger, no matter what. Get really good at that. Master Donna Lee and Confirmation and whatever the heck bebop head you have thrown at you with SA. Become really good at it.

Then ignore it.

Sometimes there are bass lines which really do sound better, more natural and more locked in when you are raking. I'm fast becoming a HUGE fan of one finger playing, and one finger technique relies pretty heavily on raking. There really is a huge sonic difference between SA and raking, and the truth of the matter is that a lot of lines sound better raked. I know that SA enthusiasts will swear on their life that those kinds of lines they play SA sound the same as the ones that are raked/one fingered, but I certainly don't hear it that way when I do it, nor when other people I've asked do it. Raking sometimes very clearly is stylistically the better choice whether it be motown grooves or walking lines (upright players rely heavily on raking, and that's a big part of the swing)

This is not an endorsement of raking all the time at the expense of SA. You can't play the fancy s*** with raking as easily or as cleanly. But the simpler, groovier stuff is so much better raked.

YMMV.

 

[JimmyM]

As you said, Havic, I do disagree about whether lines that were originally raked don't sound as good using SA. Everyone points to the Motown stuff as an example, but not one person has ever complained that I play Motown lines using SA, and I can play them just as well with SA as raking.

But I do agree with the sentiment about learning it and practicing it, then forgetting about it on a gig. Thinking about it on a gig is a sure-fire way to make a mistake, and I think I make enough of them without adding fuel to the fire by thinking .

 

[faulknersj]

I am with Jimmy on this one too. After being a raker for many years, and coverting to SA, I think it is imperitive that players learn this technique should they desire to take their playing to the next level. I suppose if one rakes conciously because it elicits a specific tone for them...more power to them...but it should be a conscious choice.

 

[Shanannigan]

When you replace raking with SA, do you primarily use rest strokes or free strokes?

Within the first little of practicing this, I'm finding what Adam said to be accurate, it is tapping into a very different part of my brain to focus on it. However I'm finding that using SA with string crossing I'm instinctively falling into free stroke. When I attempt to do it with rest strokes I find raking very difficult to avoid.

Regardless this will be my primary focus as far as technique goes for a while. At my first attempt the possible benefits of it are significantly apparent. However I'm not seeing it as a replacement for raking, but another option. I think raking adds a subtlety to tone that has it's place.

 

[Rockin Mike]

Question from a flatpicker...

What exactly is raking? I understand what SA is, and that raking is something other, but is it:
1. any right-hand fingering technique that is not strict alternation?
2. playing everything with just one finger?
3. only dragging across strings from high to low using just one finger?
4. alternating mostly, but doubling-up sometimes i.e. d-a-a played with index-middle-middle?
5. some other thing?

I'm doing more and more fingerpicking lately (not just my nose, either) and I would like to learn good habits from the start.

 

[SLaPiNFuNK]

#3... and alternating...

Say you are playing open G and open D strings... (for this easy example)...

You play with your pointer finger G, it comes to a rest on the D string, it is already there so you pluck again with the pointer finger on the D. then play the G string again with the Middle finger, it comes to a rest on the D string, so play the D string again with the middle finger.

Playing 2 notes, with the least amount of motion.

Now if you were playing the open G and open A string, since they are a string a part, you cant "rake" unless you "ghost" the D string, but that is too much for some quick octave lines.

 

[JimmyM]

When you replace raking with SA, do you primarily use rest strokes or free strokes?

Within the first little of practicing this, I'm finding what Adam said to be accurate, it is tapping into a very different part of my brain to focus on it. However I'm finding that using SA with string crossing I'm instinctively falling into free stroke. When I attempt to do it with rest strokes I find raking very difficult to avoid.

Regardless this will be my primary focus as far as technique goes for a while. At my first attempt the possible benefits of it are significantly apparent. However I'm not seeing it as a replacement for raking, but another option. I think raking adds a subtlety to tone that has it's place.

I do rest strokes with SA no problem. As I said before, you might find yourself off of your game a little for a couple weeks while you work it out, so be patient and give yourself time to screw up before you get better.

 

[devine]

Out of the two techniques I use raking... I don't prefer it, it just came more natural. Now don't get me wrong I did strictly alternate for a long time (8 years playing classical guitar) but I always found raking a more natural movement for me.

When I finally decided to go down the raking route and commit to it 100% I quickly discovered that I pretty much always raked with my index finger only... and this is where some problems can arise. If your only raking with one finger then your going to start to trip yourself up when playing some lines. I devised a lot of exercises that concentrated on balancing my two fingers (as the index was the dominant of the two) and after A LOT of practice I could rake with either one just as well. If your going to rake I really recommend balancing your fingers so there isn't a dominant finger.

Both techniques are valid... maybe just go with what feels good, but when you do you've gotta commit to it and then practice it till it's second nature.

Easy,

Scott.

Free Online Bass Lessons - Scott's Bass Lessons
Link Removed

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Raking for me is a notation instruction, raking is an accidental noted on the manuscript when it is to be used. Alternating fingers is a technique of the player, no manuscript should ever tell you what finger you use or when to use it, that is personal choice.

Yes alternating fingers should be learned if the music requires that type of comittment, i know players that have down stroked with their thumbs all their lifes with no problems, but the music was not challanging in a technical approach.
In the end, raking is an effect to be used to change the feel of the flow of the music...it is used across a wide range of instruments from pianos banjos, harps, tin whistles etc...bass is no excepting.

The point should be made is when to use it as an effect not a technique, unless it is part of that technique such as sweeping, strumming, or in double raking slap.

 

[1958Bassman]

Since the thread is still open and I haven't seen any reference to it, does anyone rake because their index finger is a lot shorter than their middle finger? The tip of my plucking index finger (I'm right-handed) barely passes the joint of the tip of my middle finger and for some runs, using SA means I have to change the angle of my right hand. Not a lot, but in the middle of a run, it hasn't become "natural" to the point that I don't need to think about it at all. My goal isn't to be the fastest player, but I know that practicing at a slow pace will only make it possible to become proficient at slow passages.

Anyone else have fingertips that aren't so close together?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Since the thread is still open and I haven't seen any reference to it, does anyone rake because their index finger is a lot shorter than their middle finger? The tip of my plucking index finger (I'm right-handed) barely passes the joint of the tip of my middle finger and for some runs, using SA means I have to change the angle of my right hand. Not a lot, but in the middle of a run, it hasn't become "natural" to the point that I don't need to think about it at all. My goal isn't to be the fastest player, but I know that practicing at a slow pace will only make it possible to become proficient at slow passages.

Anyone else have fingertips that aren't so close together?

Mute point about fingertips, when you bend your fingers ready to pluck, the tips will be all level. This is because in using the correct technique, the knuckles and joints set the finger tips level. This can only happen when the fingers are using the correct technique for the hand and finger size.

Fingers when used correctly have an arc, to steep and the finger goes to deep inbetween the strings and to shallow and the finger strickes other stings.
This then sets in place the correct arc, that when a finger plays a D on the A string, the finger does not follow through and touch never mind rest on the A on th E string. If a player has a very straight fingered and flat sweeping motion of the fingers swinging from the large knuckles on the back of the hand, then yes contact with other strings below the arc of the sweep will occur. Doing that on purpose is racking, racking is a flat sweep that strikes more than one string on a sweep.

As said practice, then forget, once you have it and use it other things become so easy because you are choosing to either rack or alternate.

 

[Ezmar]

Short and simple: It Depends.

Seriously, try playing YYZ without raking. It's just not plausible. I suppose if you can do it better without raking, go ahead, but I believe it's really only possible if you use raking. Same with the bass break in Prime Mover (Hold Your Fire, 1987), You could do it with alternating fingers, but it's a quick 16th note alternating between the D and A string every note. FAR easier with raking "diddles" than having one finger on the D and one on the A. It's just awkward.

If it feels awkward, do it some other way. If it feels awkward no matter how you play it, Pick the LEAST awkward feeling way and practice until it's not awkward anymore. if they're ALL equally awkward, practice them all! If it works, do it. If it doesn't work, MAKE it work. Playing an instrument and gaining skills is all about practicing things that are impossible and making them easy.

 

[unclejane]

However I'm finding that using SA with string crossing I'm instinctively falling into free stroke. When I attempt to do it with rest strokes I find raking very difficult to avoid.

But this isn't a bad thing. In fact, raking is a good adaptation to the mechanics involved in using the human hand to pluck a multi-stringed instrument. As you've discovered here

This is where being a technique-nazi can fail you - it can turn you into a horrid teacher and an equally terrible player for a whole lot more blood, sweat, money and tears.

Simply put, there are very basic mechanical constraints on human beings plucking basses - there just are. Therefore, it's not always the right approach to do it the hard way. Given the situation (in this case fingers that flex "upward" on the instrument more naturally than downward, etc.), if there's a hard way and an easy way to accomplish the same thing, chances are the easy way is the first avenue one should explore. Then, go from there.

And - to carry the blasphemy all the way to the edge - it is therefore frequently profitless to do it the "accepted" hard way. Gasp! That's right - sometimes the "acceptable" techniques don't do the job as well as the unacceptable (but easier) ones.

This was my experience with SA. I found it to be nothing more than a much harder way to do the same thing I could do the easy way with raking, with no additional benefit. I worked on it for quite a while without results. Went back to raking and never picked up SA again. To clarify - I'm only talking about crossing strings in the downward direction. I always alternate at all other times.

Just my experience,

LS

 

[1958Bassman]

If someone can get the job done by raking or SA, who says one os wrong or right? I know there's always someone who's considered to be the "expert", but really, if we all practice the same way, the same exercises and reach the same level of technique, I would say that's far worse than just admitting or being seen raking.

I have played guitar for just over 45 years and bass, off & on during that time, and have to ask- "If someone is listening to a CD, album or the radio, how can they tell if someone is raking, or not?". I know some great bass players and at times, they all rake. One is a member here and he's one of the best bass players I know of- obviously just my opinion, but it's as valid as anyone elses'. He studied on upright bass and still plays that as well as electric bass.

If it's OK for Ray Brown, Niels Pederson, Jaco and all of the others who are held in high esteem, isn't it more important to serve the music, rather than worry about who considers something to be a "bad habit"?

 

[gai113]

Well being the OP to this thread i can say ive turned back to Raking because its more natural and uses less energy overall.. and feel more natural to me..

Oh well i tried it.. But thats the great part do what you like and works for you..

I'm still having huge problems with speed but honestly i should just forget about it lol

 

[1958Bassman]

Well being the OP to this thread i can say ive turned back to Raking because its more natural and uses less energy overall.. and feel more natural to me..

Oh well i tried it.. But thats the great part do what you like and works for you..

I'm still having huge problems with speed but honestly i should just forget about it lol

If you play along with faster music, the speed will take care of itself, IMO. I would find the hardest music when I was trying to become better in the late '70s and found music by Return To Forever, The Dregs, Alan Holdsworth, John McLaughlin, some local bands and anything else that would kick my ass, musically. It helped every aspect of my playing- I learned the neck much faster, my ear improved immensely and I became able to play music that had seemed impossible when I first heard it. I also played along with a lot of keyboard and horn parts. I'm doing that on bass since I started playing it again and it's helping in the same way.

 

[Mayers]

Short and simple: It Depends.

Seriously, try playing YYZ without raking. It's just not plausible. I suppose if you can do it better without raking, go ahead, but I believe it's really only possible if you use raking. Same with the bass break in Prime Mover (Hold Your Fire, 1987), You could do it with alternating fingers, but it's a quick 16th note alternating between the D and A string every note. FAR easier with raking "diddles" than having one finger on the D and one on the A. It's just awkward.

If it feels awkward, do it some other way. If it feels awkward no matter how you play it, Pick the LEAST awkward feeling way and practice until it's not awkward anymore. if they're ALL equally awkward, practice them all! If it works, do it. If it doesn't work, MAKE it work. Playing an instrument and gaining skills is all about practicing things that are impossible and making them easy.

I learn to play without any raking 12 years ago ... and I think It is important to learn to play that way. Especially if you want to take your playing a few step higher. Like YYZ isn't as hard as you say. I found more challenge in bebop or some Jaco song.

 

[gai113]

yeah most of the stuff im having problems with is bebop jazz soloing.. honestly its a lifetime of study probably..

:0

 

[Fergie Fulton]

yeah most of the stuff im having problems with is bebop jazz soloing.. honestly its a lifetime of study probably..

:0

Think about this then, if playing fast is fluent then there has to be very little "thinking" time involved between the action of thought and action. It is this line that is part of playing fast in the soloing skill. A player cannot stop to think "where now" he has to intuitively know where to go, that said, at speed or in improv the player has to know where he was in order to know where to go etc.....
Getting these thought process in place create fluid fast playing because hesitation and doubt are removed from the playing process.

As you say it is a lifetime study, so as far as SA is concerned i would question why you have giving up on it, sound like to me you expect and have been looking for results. That is a sure way to put anyone off learning, is to look for the fruits of their labour, i believe it was one of the many things JB and i agreed on in his threads, was that leap of faith that what you are doing is right, so just keep doing it and it will come to you, one day that "hey i'm doing it" and you won't even be concious of when it happened. With that in mind practise the SA but gig with what is natural, trust me once the SA becomes internalized you will use it on gigs as well, and still have the choice to rake......and that is how i see it choice.