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Aluminium vs Brass bridge

JP,

I spec'd brass specifically. I truly don't know how much diffence there is between brass an aluminum tonally, but among those that seem to have an opinion that it does, the concensus seems to be that brass is a little deeper sounding, while aluminum was a little brighter.

"Deeper" was what I wanted, and since having the lightest weight possible wasn't really a big consideration, I figured I'd go with the brass.

Mike
 
So I did some reading on this subject too. I haven't found a clear answer yet but, have some interesting facts.

First, the problem with a lot of the advice you'll get about bridge material is that it is often based on apples-to-oranges comparison. Because a bridge, like body wood, is a passive component, bridges can only attenuate a signal by dissipating vibratory energy as heat. So if it were true that brass bridges gave you "bigger sound" or more sustain, it would be because the aluminum version of an identical bridge was losing more energy than the brass one.

Comparing bridges of different design is a problem because bridges can dissipate energy in other ways too. The interface of the saddle and the bridge base plate is usually not rigid. I know that many bridges have locking saddles, which would serve to reduce vibration between the saddle and base plate. In a non-locking bridge, the saddle is not directly coupled to the base plate, and not being rigid, can spend some energy. I would expect the mass of the saddle to be more important than in a locking bridge.

Also the interface between the bridge base plate and the body is usually a screw joint- these would deform under vibration just like a neck/body joint in a bolt on bass. Ideal bridges are completely coupled to the body, so the mass of the endpoint that the string "sees" is the combined body/bridge mass- You could have a lighter bridge and a slightly more massive body, or vice versa, and it should work out pretty similarly. For differently designed bridges, however, the internal friction of the base/body interface could vary wildly- the number of screws, placement of the screws, etc. If the joint is inefficient, sustain would be reduced accordingly.

The other way a bridge could spend energy would be through internal friction. Aluminum has a specific stiffness (the ratio of stiffness to mass) around twice that of brass. Their internal frictions are about the same, so if the bridges were joined to the body in the same way (i.e. they lost no energy through their saddle/base or base/body interfaces at the same rate) I would expect them to dissipate energy as heat at about the same rate. So although brass is more massive, aluminum makes up for it by deforming less under vibration.

The bridge can also act to couple strings, so that energy in one string is spent creating sympathetic vibration in neighboring strings. I don't know what materials factors contribute to this. As JP pointed out, new style bridges that use entirely separate tailpieces for each string eliminate this coupling and the plucked string will lose less of its energy when neighboring strings begin to resonate.

So anyhow, I think this is another case where you have to look at design first, then material. Going from a flimsy factory bridge to something huge like a Badass is almost certain to sound at least a little different, the saddles and base plate are arranged differently and are considerably different in design. However it would be a hasty conclusion to decide that it was the bridge material making the difference, when there are many more fundamental differences in the design. However if you're sticking Hipshot A or B bridges and just varying the material, there isn't anything special about the brass that would cause it to behave much differently.

My guess is the reason that aftermarket bridges were cast out of brass to begin with was that it was easier at the time to cast brass. In general, they are of all-around higher quality construction than the factory jobbies. Take this all with a grain of salt, mind you. I'm not a metallurgist, just curious.

To do this right, it would be necessary to measure some very carefully generated samples through an FFT analysis program like Spectra. Human ears are very, very bad at picking out subtle differences, because they are attached to a brain that will judge sounds differently when it knows that the materials have changed :)
 
Originally posted by GooseYArd
So I did some reading on this subject too. I haven't found a clear answer yet but, have some interesting facts.

First, the problem with a lot of the advice you'll get about bridge material is that it is often based on apples-to-oranges comparison. Because a bridge, like body wood, is a passive component, bridges can only attenuate a signal by dissipating vibratory energy as heat. So if it were true that brass bridges gave you "bigger sound" or more sustain, it would be because the aluminum version of an identical bridge was losing more energy than the brass one.

Comparing bridges of different design is a problem because bridges can dissipate energy in other ways too. The interface of the saddle and the bridge base plate is usually not rigid. I know that many bridges have locking saddles, which would serve to reduce vibration between the saddle and base plate. In a non-locking bridge, the saddle is not directly coupled to the base plate, and not being rigid, can spend some energy. I would expect the mass of the saddle to be more important than in a locking bridge.

Also the interface between the bridge base plate and the body is usually a screw joint- these would deform under vibration just like a neck/body joint in a bolt on bass. Ideal bridges are completely coupled to the body, so the mass of the endpoint that the string "sees" is the combined body/bridge mass- You could have a lighter bridge and a slightly more massive body, or vice versa, and it should work out pretty similarly. For differently designed bridges, however, the internal friction of the base/body interface could vary wildly- the number of screws, placement of the screws, etc. If the joint is inefficient, sustain would be reduced accordingly.

The other way a bridge could spend energy would be through internal friction. Aluminum has a specific stiffness (the ratio of stiffness to mass) around twice that of brass. Their internal frictions are about the same, so if the bridges were joined to the body in the same way (i.e. they lost no energy through their saddle/base or base/body interfaces at the same rate) I would expect them to dissipate energy as heat at about the same rate. So although brass is more massive, aluminum makes up for it by deforming less under vibration.

The bridge can also act to couple strings, so that energy in one string is spent creating sympathetic vibration in neighboring strings. I don't know what materials factors contribute to this. As JP pointed out, new style bridges that use entirely separate tailpieces for each string eliminate this coupling and the plucked string will lose less of its energy when neighboring strings begin to resonate.

So anyhow, I think this is another case where you have to look at design first, then material. Going from a flimsy factory bridge to something huge like a Badass is almost certain to sound at least a little different, the saddles and base plate are arranged differently and are considerably different in design. However it would be a hasty conclusion to decide that it was the bridge material making the difference, when there are many more fundamental differences in the design. However if you're sticking Hipshot A or B bridges and just varying the material, there isn't anything special about the brass that would cause it to behave much differently.

My guess is the reason that aftermarket bridges were cast out of brass to begin with was that it was easier at the time to cast brass. In general, they are of all-around higher quality construction than the factory jobbies. Take this all with a grain of salt, mind you. I'm not a metallurgist, just curious.

To do this right, it would be necessary to measure some very carefully generated samples through an FFT analysis program like Spectra. Human ears are very, very bad at picking out subtle differences, because they are attached to a brain that will judge sounds differently when it knows that the materials have changed :)

Andy,

thanks a lot for this post! Lots of my thought summarized there ;) I guess I'm just to lazy or too bad at english to make such long written analysis !!

I aslo LOVE the last sentence, you bet!

Still waiting for more feedback. I wil also contact George at FBass because I'm pretty sure he has done the test of different material bridges on the same bass.

Peace, JP
 
interesting post, and i agree for the most part. i remember when i had that Lull MV5 that i wasn't completely happy with, i talked to the guys at the lull shop about replacing it with a brass version of the bridge. they told me they wouldn't recommend doing it, as i wouldn't be happy with the final result. they said they usually use the brass versions only for their fretless basses and the aluminum hipshots go on the fretted basses. interesting. obviously they hear some difference between the two bridges to discriminate between them in their instrument building as such. does anyone know what kind of bridges roger sadowsky uses? brass, alluminum? i'm interested in finding out...
 
Ok,

Talked with George at F bass and again with Jason at hipshot. Looks like I'm going aluminium ;)

BTW for those who like to know, an hipshot A style 5 strings bridges weighs 334 grams if made out of brass and only 164 grams in aluminium!

That's a huge difference when you're trying to keep the basses under 8lbs :D

Peace, JP
 
Originally posted by GooseYArd
So I did some reading on this subject too. I haven't found a clear answer yet but, have some interesting facts.

First, the problem with a lot of the advice you'll get about bridge material is that it is often based on apples-to-oranges comparison. Because a bridge, like body wood, is a passive component, bridges can only attenuate a signal by dissipating vibratory energy as heat. So if it were true that brass bridges gave you "bigger sound" or more sustain, it would be because the aluminum version of an identical bridge was losing more energy than the brass one.

Comparing bridges of different design is a problem because bridges can dissipate energy in other ways too. The interface of the saddle and the bridge base plate is usually not rigid. I know that many bridges have locking saddles, which would serve to reduce vibration between the saddle and base plate. In a non-locking bridge, the saddle is not directly coupled to the base plate, and not being rigid, can spend some energy. I would expect the mass of the saddle to be more important than in a locking bridge.

Also the interface between the bridge base plate and the body is usually a screw joint- these would deform under vibration just like a neck/body joint in a bolt on bass. Ideal bridges are completely coupled to the body, so the mass of the endpoint that the string "sees" is the combined body/bridge mass- You could have a lighter bridge and a slightly more massive body, or vice versa, and it should work out pretty similarly. For differently designed bridges, however, the internal friction of the base/body interface could vary wildly- the number of screws, placement of the screws, etc. If the joint is inefficient, sustain would be reduced accordingly.

The other way a bridge could spend energy would be through internal friction. Aluminum has a specific stiffness (the ratio of stiffness to mass) around twice that of brass. Their internal frictions are about the same, so if the bridges were joined to the body in the same way (i.e. they lost no energy through their saddle/base or base/body interfaces at the same rate) I would expect them to dissipate energy as heat at about the same rate. So although brass is more massive, aluminum makes up for it by deforming less under vibration.

The bridge can also act to couple strings, so that energy in one string is spent creating sympathetic vibration in neighboring strings. I don't know what materials factors contribute to this. As JP pointed out, new style bridges that use entirely separate tailpieces for each string eliminate this coupling and the plucked string will lose less of its energy when neighboring strings begin to resonate.

So anyhow, I think this is another case where you have to look at design first, then material. Going from a flimsy factory bridge to something huge like a Badass is almost certain to sound at least a little different, the saddles and base plate are arranged differently and are considerably different in design. However it would be a hasty conclusion to decide that it was the bridge material making the difference, when there are many more fundamental differences in the design. However if you're sticking Hipshot A or B bridges and just varying the material, there isn't anything special about the brass that would cause it to behave much differently.

My guess is the reason that aftermarket bridges were cast out of brass to begin with was that it was easier at the time to cast brass. In general, they are of all-around higher quality construction than the factory jobbies. Take this all with a grain of salt, mind you. I'm not a metallurgist, just curious.

To do this right, it would be necessary to measure some very carefully generated samples through an FFT analysis program like Spectra. Human ears are very, very bad at picking out subtle differences, because they are attached to a brain that will judge sounds differently when it knows that the materials have changed :)
Well said, GY. The only thing not quite technically right is that while aluminum does have a higher stiffness-to-weight than brass, aluminum still has a lower stiffness, so it does deflect more under vibration. But, more importantly, I agree 100% that all of the consequences of varying material are far outweighed by the consequences of varying design.
 
I agree with GooseYArd and pilotjones. Any comparison of different materials has to be done with the same design.

Another factor no one has mentioned with Hipshot: the Type A bridges have steel saddle pieces. Not the overall saddles, but the adjustable insert where the string actually rests. And the Type B bridge has brass saddles whether you order it with a brass or aluminum body.
 
And another opinion: there are three things that a bridge can do: 1) retain the energy in the string, 2) allow it to dissipate, or 3) allow it to be absorbed either by the body or the mass of the bridge itself. IMO the best design is the one that comes closest to retaining the energy in the string. Body coupling is not desirable in a solidbody electric.
 
I think it’s fascinating that this thread is 15 years old, when the internet had just started to be widely used, and despite 15 years of knowledge being shared and spread and accumulated online....

there is 0 consensus on this topic after 15 years.
 
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