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Am I diva for not wanting to play for free?

Very funny, but you know what I mean. A common comment I hear among musicians is "I don't care if I only make 5 bucks, but I won't play for free." Make 5 bucks, lose 5 bucks, it's all the same to me.

I know what you mean and I still say the logic is porous. $5/hr AFTER EXPENSES vs. no pay at all BEFORE EXPENSES don't work out as you say... if you seriously think the difference is making or losing $5, fine. It's not.

So no, they're not just numbers... they add up.
:D
 
In general you are right, the influx of readily available video and "live" concert footage has dulled the senses of the masses. The changes in the drinking age (I'm lucky it was 18) definitely effect some of the economics as well. Justin Bieber? Nothing a good swift kick won't fix...hehehehe

But the digirati have also helped, due to Rock Band and Guitar Hero. I was in a club the other day subbing and when the band played "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" by CD I was amazed at how just about ALL the kids knew all the words. Hell, southern rock has been basically dead for almost 20 years, and especially CD doesn't get played at all on radio. How did they know it? Yep Guitar Hero!

It has also spurred a huge revival in interest of the Beatles and their catalogue. I went Parasailing on Sunday with some 15 year olds, two of which were wearing Beatles T-Shirts. I was surprised at how much they knew when I quizzed them.

I live in a summer resort area. There are more clubs then bands, and there are still a gazillion cover bands. So lack of work is not a problem. But at a few I know, payment is. One of my local pubs pays bands well and gets the best bands and when they play (every Sunday night) the places are packed, and no cover. The bands are making around $800 for the night.

There is another club that pays the bands little or nothing, but is right on the beach so they draw decently all summer. I went to book a gig there and he asked for a "free tryout" and then maybe he would book again. I did not sign up then looked at the last 6 weeks band schedule. Not one band had been rebooked. I had been in that club one night and the band was great and the club was packed. I went back to ask the owner about that band and when they were coming next and he told me, "they weren't that good and didn't draw." Its a crock, and I immediately figured it out. Nothing but "free" bands all summer, and as long as the cash register is ringing he don't care. And as long as there is a supply of bands...

Funny thing I've found is a club owner will pay a good DJ everytime, but not a good band. Go figure...

A good DJ can be far less of a hassle for a clubowner than even a good band. After all, bands have musicians in them.
:hiding:
 
Hi, OP. I haven't read this entire thread. Just wanted to say that, IME, users get huffy when you don't let them use you. They don't feel ashamed like I would kind of expect. The huffiness doesn't mean I should have done anything differently. A lot of ppl live by, It doesn't hurt to ask. Fair enough; but by the same token, it doesn't hurt to say no, either. (In fact, I rather enjoy it.)


I dont leave the house for anything less than a bill.

Also, this is awesome.

--Bomb :bassist:
 
Hi, OP. I haven't read this entire thread. Just wanted to say that, IME, users get huffy when you don't let them use you. They don't feel ashamed like I would kind of expect. The huffiness doesn't mean I should have done anything differently. A lot of ppl live by, It doesn't hurt to ask. Fair enough; but by the same token, it doesn't hurt to say no, either. (In fact, I rather enjoy it.)

With just a few short sentences, you have provided what is quite likely the best response to the OP yet.
 
This stuff rarely happens to me anymore but it still can...

I got a call from a bandleader who said I was recommended to him by someone I knew. He told me about his band, it's projected schedule, etc. and I told him that due to my current commitments I couldn't be their fulltime bassist (I'm booked most Fridays and Saturdays). He said he'd still like to use me when I was free. Said that his band currently had a bassist and they were rehearsing Sunday afternoon, if I wanted to I was free to stop by and check them out.

Sunday morning he left me a message asking if I was coming. I called him after I was done with the church service I was doing and told him yeah, I could stop by on my way to my next appointment.

I get to the rehearsal space, get introduced to everyone and notice there's no bassist there. He said I could go ahead and plug in, maybe run over a couple of songs. The rehearsal space provided backline and the amp's fan was banging away inside it's enclosure so I said I'd go outside and grab my head. When I walked outside I ran into a close friend of mine who's a bassist. He was surprised to see me and told me the leader had just called him 20 minutes ago and asked him to come and play and that he'd be paid. Told him that I was supposed to play but hadn't called him back.

So we walk in together and the leader's standing there with a blank look on his face. Doesn't know we know each other and that we're close friends. Doesn't say anything to my friend and told me that his bassist wasn't showing up and could I run over a couple of songs. Fine, I'm there, what the heck.

Turned out he wanted me to run over five songs, which we did, then I overheard him saying put on black shirts for a group photo and action shots and then they'd record the five songs we ran over.

So far I'm supposed to be a guest at this rehearsal as far as I knew.
:hmm:

I asked him if he was going to be taping the band, he said no, just recording a demo for clubs. And the difference is?

Instead of walking out I went ahead and played the five songs again. They turned out very well. Afterwards he came to me and asked me if I had change for $100, I looked and told him I had $40, he gave me the $100, took the $40 and walked off. I was there for another 15 minutes and then I left.

Around 10 o'clock he calls me and says he didn't get his change. I said I know. He said he'd call me Monday, I said fine. I called my friend up and he found out from the guy who had recommended me that this demo session had been planned, people were being paid (including my friend) and when my name was brought up the leader said I was doing it for free.
:hmm:

So I had a nice conversation with him on Monday in which he tried to backtrack and justify what had gone down. It was supposedly a series of miscommunications... which was complete bull. He was simply trying to get over.

The reason he called my friend at 4:40 was because he didn't think I was going to show up, despite the fact that he talked to me at 4 for this 5 o'clock rehearsal that I was just supposed to check out. The rehearsal did not hinge on me showing up. There was no mention of doing a demo. He said he wanted my friend to play a couple of songs to check out his tone... sounds like an audition to me. Said he wasn't doing it for the money, I told him I am doing it for the money and asked what expectations the person who'd recommended me had set.

This devolved into the usual nonsense about he had a good dayjob so the money wasn't important, he didn't have to rely on gig money:rolleyes:. I told him the importance of the money to anyone concerned is not the issue. If money doesn't mean any more than he said it did, cool... pay the people it does mean something to more. It's a win-win. He even asked me if I charge for rehearsals and I told him yeah, sometimes I do... especially when I'm dealing with unknowns or people I know are flakey, who'll try to get free rehearsals and then hire someone cheaper for the actual gig. BTDT.

I told him that if you want someone to do something, tell them what you want them to do. Don't BS someone to come in under false pretenses and then act like it was a simple mistake. That doesn't fly. He said no one got paid, which he later recanted, said my friend wasn't going to get paid, which is the opposite of what my friend told me. At this point I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could kick him.

At one point he even told me to keep $50 and we could meet and I could give him $10. I LOL'd. I told him I charge more than $50 to come out and do a demo, he was actually stupid enough to say that I hadn't told him that before I came over. I asked why would I tell him what I charge for a demo when it wasn't even part of our conversation and I was simply a guest?

That seemed to stump him so he started in about his faith and how he's a man of his word, all of which flew in the face of the crap he was pulling. I humored this BS for a few more minutes, asking who was supposed to play if I hadn't showed up (my friend left almost immediately)? That baffled him. He asked about performing with him this weekend and I politely told him I'd have to pass. This first impression left a very bad and very familiar taste. I got $60 (I'll let someone else compute that hourly;)) and another silly story to tell. If I worked with this guy it would be my own fault now that I know better.

He's called a few times since yesterday, the last call was around 6:40 this morning, said he talked to his manager and now he wants to pay my bassist friend for coming by and he wants to pay me another $40 for a total of $100 for the demo. I have no reason to call him back.
:cool:
 
In general you are right, the influx of readily available video and "live" concert footage has dulled the senses of the masses. The changes in the drinking age (I'm lucky it was 18) definitely effect some of the economics as well. Justin Bieber? Nothing a good swift kick won't fix...hehehehe

But the digirati have also helped, due to Rock Band and Guitar Hero. I was in a club the other day subbing and when the band played "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" by CD I was amazed at how just about ALL the kids knew all the words. Hell, southern rock has been basically dead for almost 20 years, and especially CD doesn't get played at all on radio. How did they know it? Yep Guitar Hero!

It has also spurred a huge revival in interest of the Beatles and their catalogue. I went Parasailing on Sunday with some 15 year olds, two of which were wearing Beatles T-Shirts. I was surprised at how much they knew when I quizzed them.

I live in a summer resort area. There are more clubs then bands, and there are still a gazillion cover bands. So lack of work is not a problem. But at a few I know, payment is. One of my local pubs pays bands well and gets the best bands and when they play (every Sunday night) the places are packed, and no cover. The bands are making around $800 for the night.

There is another club that pays the bands little or nothing, but is right on the beach so they draw decently all summer. I went to book a gig there and he asked for a "free tryout" and then maybe he would book again. I did not sign up then looked at the last 6 weeks band schedule. Not one band had been rebooked. I had been in that club one night and the band was great and the club was packed. I went back to ask the owner about that band and when they were coming next and he told me, "they weren't that good and didn't draw." Its a crock, and I immediately figured it out. Nothing but "free" bands all summer, and as long as the cash register is ringing he don't care. And as long as there is a supply of bands...

Funny thing I've found is a club owner will pay a good DJ everytime, but not a good band. Go figure...

As a fellow Jersey Boy, may I ask which clubs to avoid? And which one's to shoot for???
 
There's a bit in one of Lois McMaster Bujold's "Miles Vorkosigan" books (Civil Campaign) that sort of fits in this thread's topic, I think. One of the characters has offered to do some work for free, and the response from another character is: "Never, ever suggest they don't have to pay you. What they pay for, they'll value. What they get for free, they'll take for granted, and then demand as a right. Hold them up for all the market will bear!" Seems a pretty good philosophy to me. And if you're asked to play at a fund raiser for free, ask if the catering, etc. is being paid for, or donated... (And if you do decide to donate band time to a fund raiser, ask for a receipt so you can use it as a deduction on taxes...!!)
 
What people fail to realize is that being a musician costs money. They at least need to compensate for your gas. They should pay for your services considering they're ASKING YOU to play.

Had a similar incident with another band. They were asking us to play a gig with them..but we usually require some sort of gurantee...not necessarily to make a profit but just to compensate to at least break even for expenses to get to the venue and back home. Of course they were on a high horse about how they don't have to play for money and its all about the music blah blah blah. But what they don't get is that we (my band) consider our band a business. So we can't throw our gas money away and waste the tread on our tires on the tralier on a free gig....losing money is bad business.

We turned the gig down btw and their gig flopped...$100 for a 5 piece band was too expensive for them...considering we would have drawn most of the crowd anyway.
 
I know what you mean and I still say the logic is porous. $5/hr AFTER EXPENSES vs. no pay at all BEFORE EXPENSES don't work out as you say... if you seriously think the difference is making or losing $5, fine. It's not.

So no, they're not just numbers... they add up.
:D
The thing is, I agree with you. I try to look at the bigger picture, not whether I got 5 bucks to play the gig or not. The 5 bucks is meaningless. But I know guys who stand on the "principle" of getting paid the 5 bucks as opposed to playing for free, completely disregarding the rest of the story. That's 5 bucks before expenses versus zero bucks before expenses. They are losing money either way.

I played a freebie one time where the band leader wouldn't rent a mixer for 10 bucks because he didn't want to "pay to play" as a matter of principle, so we dragged this 30+ year old mixer to the gig that had dirty, scratchy, shorting out pots and gave us loads of grief all night. Well, we didn't pay in money, but I'd have gladly forked over the 10 bucks out of my own pocket not to have had to deal with that mixer.
 
IMO, do professionals-in other careers care if they get paid for hobby-band gigs? Hopefully, they do.

Edit: IMO (and it's just an opinion) we should charge $$ for showing up at the door/gate/entrance, and performing for 2-4 hours.
If you choose to give it away...it's a free country.
 
Ignoring the difference that 'we' can make by charging to play commercial venues in Mizzoula, Monterey, Muscogee, Milwaukee, or anywhere else-sure sounds like a self-absorbed, self-centered choice.
And demanding that I charge more for my work so you can make more money doesn't sound self-absorbed and self-centered to you? What have you done for me lately? :D
 
The thing is, I agree with you. I try to look at the bigger picture, not whether I got 5 bucks to play the gig or not. The 5 bucks is meaningless. But I know guys who stand on the "principle" of getting paid the 5 bucks as opposed to playing for free, completely disregarding the rest of the story. That's 5 bucks before expenses versus zero bucks before expenses. They are losing money either way.

I played a freebie one time where the band leader wouldn't rent a mixer for 10 bucks because he didn't want to "pay to play" as a matter of principle, so we dragged this 30+ year old mixer to the gig that had dirty, scratchy, shorting out pots and gave us loads of grief all night. Well, we didn't pay in money, but I'd have gladly forked over the 10 bucks out of my own pocket not to have had to deal with that mixer.

Cool.