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Am I getting screwed on $?

#21
friskinator said:
In my opinion, we frequently take gigs that aren't worth the money when the travel time/expense is considered, but whenever I voice an opinion, the singer's response is "well, we aren't doing anything else that weekend. If you want, I can find someone else to do the gig."
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Is he saying this in an angry threatening sort of way like "you can be replaced", or a friendly understanding way that says "I can get a sub for you for those sorts of gigs"?

If its the latter, that might be a great solution. Be aware he may decide he likes the sub better at some point and replace you entirely in the long run.

Randy
 
#22
steveksux said:
Is he saying this in an angry threatening sort of way like "you can be replaced", or a friendly understanding way that says "I can get a sub for you for those sorts of gigs"?

If its the latter, that might be a great solution. Be aware he may decide he likes the sub better at some point and replace you entirely in the long run.

Randy
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It was more threatening than friendly. It just makes me feel expendable, which is a letdown considering that he claims to consider me a friend as well as a bandmate. I've seen a couple of their old bassists, and I definitely bring more to the table with talent and dependability than they ever did.

Like I said, I have no problem with the band leader/business owner making more money. That's completely fair. He's doing more work, taking more risk and keeping the bills paid; therefore, he should make more than the rest of us. I'm just saying that I don't make enough on most of the travel gigs.

We recently had an overnight gig where it took us 6 hrs of drive time each way (plus a few hours of setup/check/tear down time, with PA), and after my own expenses, I only cleared $120. I dunno, would that be enough for you guys?
 
#23
Maybe y'all could come up with some sort of bonus system.

If you gross over X number of dollars you get a little extra.

Or if operating expenses are kept lower due to less travel.

He still needs to hold something back for travel and unforeseen circumstances, so don't expect too much.
 
#27
onosson said:
I would (and have in other bands) let the leader know the minimum amount acceptable to you for a gig. If $120 for a gig with 12 hrs travel time is not ok (it's not for me either!) then just say so. Be reasonable but be firm. I don't take gigs anymore where I make minimum wage - it's, frankly, an insult.
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It's totally an insult. I have 20 years worth of live gig experience, and to make minimum wage for my time isn't acceptable. If the rest of the guys are OK with that, then fine. I told the singer that I can't do the travel gigs for what amounts to minimum wage much longer, and he seemed to have a "take it or leave it" stance. Thanks, but I'll leave it.

It's amazing to me how many working musicians settle for so little money per gig. If it's something you do on the side for extra cash and personal enjoyment, fine. If it's a career, your experience should determine the pay. Do you think the A-list session/live guys play for minimum wage? I'm not at all comparing myself to them, but I doubt it.

Oh, and the singer does own the PA, but it was paid off long before I joined the band.
 
#28
As a fellow working bassist, I can honestly say that when you re-evaluate the situation, really re-evaluate your position. IMO, good paying gigs are becoming harder to find. And, it still beats the 9-5 grind.

Is he getting over on you moneywise..? maybe, if at all, probably not by that much. The tax man liketh the self employed musician, and usually demands auditing every year. He's probably saving extra per quarter so he can meet his tax requirements.:crying:

$200 is nothing to sneeze at but 200 ain't gonna keep you satisfied. Time to move on.:bassist:
 
#29
$200, by the way, is definitely on the higher end of what I get paid. It's usually in the $100-150 range, based on our average take after booking gets their 20%.

The most I've ever made from one gig with this band is $400 for a wedding we played last year, but...it was 12 hours away from home and took up 3 full days of my time when factoring in travel. That's about $135/day, minus food. That's not fair compensation, in my opinion. Especially considering how much traveling takes out of me physically/mentally.
 
#30
Not to beat a dead horse, but you keep throwing in comments concerning things that aren't your concern (the van will be paid off in June, the PA was paid off long before you came along). What does concern you is how much you make, on average, compared to the amount of time spent, again on average. Look at the last two months for example. Divide your total gross wages by the number of hours you've been "on the clock". Maybe you are better off looking for a better gig or making a career change. In any event, trying to just play the cherry gigs isn't a viable option IMHO. Look at it from the owners perspective, why would he pay someone for the cheap gigs just so you can pick the gigs you want. I would get rid of the problem player and reward the one I can count on to be there for every gig.
 
#31
When you travel you are not being paid 200 for the gig - you are being paid 200 for the gig, the travel, the time that you could be making other money, the time spent otherwise spent with family and true friends.

Do you rehearse and are you paid for that?

Hired guns get paid to rehearse. Hired guns get per diem for out of town gigs. You always have the right to refuse. If, however, you are scared of losing the gig, then you really have no power. You need to search your priorities.
 
#32
Renaissance said:
Not to beat a dead horse, but you keep throwing in comments concerning things that aren't your concern (the van will be paid off in June, the PA was paid off long before you came along). What does concern you is how much you make, on average, compared to the amount of time spent, again on average. Look at the last two months for example. Divide your total gross wages by the number of hours you've been "on the clock". Maybe you are better off looking for a better gig or making a career change. In any event, trying to just play the cherry gigs isn't a viable option IMHO. Look at it from the owners perspective, why would he pay someone for the cheap gigs just so you can pick the gigs you want. I would get rid of the problem player and reward the one I can count on to be there for every gig.
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I only commented on the PA/van because people asked. You're right, those don't concern me, but the singer did use the van payment as one explanation as to why he couldn't pay a higher percentage. My only options at this point are:

A. Shut up and keep the gig under the current pay rate.
B. Ask the singer to find another player for the travel gigs, and perhaps risk losing the all the gigs.
C. Find a new gig.

Mike, you're right - the $200 is for the entire block of time I have to reserve to do the gig, which prevents me from doing anything else. It's kinda hard to work at home or hang out w/friends & family when I'm in a van for hours at a time. I don't think the other guys in the band see it that way. Luckily, we don't rehearse anymore - we've had the same set list for a couple years now and don't really need to.

I really do love playing music, but making this low of a rate per hour is causing me to look for other lines of work. Not to mention my lack of health insurance, etc., but that's another topic entirely.
 
#34
When I'm offered anything that involves being out of town, I just do the math. I'm married, have two kids. Being away from home means that my wife might have to rearrange her work schedule, we might need to obtain child care - it is always disruptive to my family. If I'm not coming out ahead by the end of the trip (be it one day or three weeks), then I have to say no.

You have to do your own calculations on what "coming out ahead" means to you. Your "boss" has his own expenses to cover off the top - and so do you.
 
#35
My $0.02:

If the hired gun's contract says he gets paid a percentage of the gross, then he has a right to documentation of what the gross is. That's just fair dealing. If the band manager won't show the books, he is not dealing fairly and that's that. Whether one is willing to work under such circumstances depends on how desperate one is.

If the hired gun is playing for agreed-upon fixed pay, then he gets his fixed pay and how profitable the business is or isn't for the owner is not his concern. The owner may be losing money or may be raking it in, either way it's not the employee's problem as long as he is getting his agreed pay.

It sounds like the OP is caught in a situation that's neither; agreed to being paid a percentage but not being shown what he's getting a percentage of.
 
#36
hrodbert696 said:
My $0.02:

If the hired gun's contract says he gets paid a percentage of the gross, then he has a right to documentation of what the gross is. That's just fair dealing. If the band manager won't show the books, he is not dealing fairly and that's that. Whether one is willing to work under such circumstances depends on how desperate one is.

If the hired gun is playing for agreed-upon fixed pay, then he gets his fixed pay and how profitable the business is or isn't for the owner is not his concern. The owner may be losing money or may be raking it in, either way it's not the employee's problem as long as he is getting his agreed pay.

It sounds like the OP is caught in a situation that's neither; agreed to being paid a percentage but not being shown what he's getting a percentage of.
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That's a very good point.

I try to make it a personal policy not to take gigs *out of desperation*, and strongly encourage others not to. It is not good for yourself, and in the long run is detrimental to all of us who earn our living from music.
 
#37
friskinator said:
If you want, I can find someone else to do the gig.
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This pretty much sums it all up .. there's always someone ready fill your spot in a band that has steady work. Try and remove any personal feelings, or suspicions (it seems he runs things from this perspective as well) and look at yourself as a business. Whether it's worth it or not is, of course, completely up to you. Good luck either way you go!
 
#38
It's simple.

you front and sing.. buy the van... take care of the book keeping... book the gigs.. do the contracting.. pay for the giveaways etc... then find a few guys who will be babysat for $200 each.

The guy could have a chip on his shoulder as your comments may seem ungrateful or may not be in the best PR method.

I'm the leader of my band.. the guys are fully aware that I've taken money out of my savings to pay them.. heck I paid $800 out of pocket for our Friday night gig.. and hauled all of the gear.

Sounds like you should start your own band... get a name.. a concept.. a website.. buy the photography etc.

Tim
 
#39
You're definitely not getting screwed. Keep it simple. Is $200 (or 20%) a gig enough for you? If it is, you're fine. If not, ask for a raise or quit. I've got a hunch you could be replaced by someone who will take the $200 and not bitch.

You're a side man. You were offered a deal and you took it. Was part of your agreement that you would get to see the books?
 
#40
It does not matter what the leader makes or, for that matter, what he spends. he offers the gig and tells you what the pay is, what the travel is, per diem, rehearsal schedule. You then make the choice based on whatever your personal and/or financial situation is. EAch of us is different.

I have a minimum pay that I will accept. This is pretty firm except for a few friends that I have worked with for many years. I throw them a deal and they do likewise.

For any out of town gig, fee plus per diem, plus lodging is absolutely required.

I will not even recommend a sub or one of my students if I think the pay sucks. I would not want to lose their respect
 

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