as an addendum, my perspective is that this sort of thing becomes more about the computer programing than it does about the music (though this is a rabbit hole with lots of offshoots).
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Ambient/Post-Rock/Textural bass playing thread
- Thread starter ttasselm
- Start date
lots of thought provoking stuff in the past day worthy of responding to, but I’m out of town on my phone so don’t want to try typing too much…but, as a composer who’s written lot of serial musics I felt compelled to reply to ^^^this:
ALL harmonic systems, even bog stock Common Practice Major/Minor Tonality, are “sort of” about generating material (…and about making decisions about how to use that material).
It’s just that for folks who grew up immersed in more traditional harmonic language(s), it’s harder to recognize how the familiar system COERCES the composer than it is with serialism.
Strongly agree with all of this.
I've found this AI music fascinating from a tech standpoint, but artistically, I think it's not really worth my time, regardless of genre. If anything, it shows how predictable and formulaic so many of these genres are. It could be functional as a moneymaker targeting the many, many people who basically view music as wallpaper, though.
In other news, this is more or less what my new bass will look like (with a more dramatic spalt and a Spanish cedar body). Not too over the top, I hope. I go so back and forth about that... I love the dramatic look of woods, but also don't want to appear like a show-off, and sometimes get self-conscious of it, as though the only people who deserve these works of art should be virtuosos.
Been shifting a lot of the focus of my fretless playing on playing multiple notes and such in tune. I play a lot of doublestops and chords on my fretteds, but never worked too hard on it on fretless, and I'm finding what a beast it can be to get em right. At least I have good ears, because it's very obvious when they aren't.
Any of you have any particular intonation techniques you practice? I've had several people whose opinions I respect tell me that I have pretty good intonation on fretless, but there's always room for improvement, especially with the multinotes. Chords are friggin' hard!
Been shifting a lot of the focus of my fretless playing on playing multiple notes and such in tune. I play a lot of doublestops and chords on my fretteds, but never worked too hard on it on fretless, and I'm finding what a beast it can be to get em right. At least I have good ears, because it's very obvious when they aren't.
Any of you have any particular intonation techniques you practice? I've had several people whose opinions I respect tell me that I have pretty good intonation on fretless, but there's always room for improvement, especially with the multinotes. Chords are friggin' hard!
sure. pretty much everything gets into some sort of systemization/organization of pitch/timbre/duration. it could be personal, it could be the current mode of expression.
imo, what separates the great from the good from the mediocre from the awful is how one uses that system, as you say, **the decisions one makes** (or lack thereof) with the materials at hand.
again imo, if the system overrides the decision-making, i think there’s a problem.
further, the ai/generative scenario presumably starts with decisions being made, but doesn’t allow for too much decision-making after *actually hearing the music*. to me that’s high concept, but little real-world experience with what’s in the air. it cuts out where the real
work occurs (again, imo).
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cool. pretty much people will either it’s beautiful and comment only on that or bitch about the number of strings or it being an expensive coffee table.
some might even comment on the sound or how you play.
(gleaned from years of playing “fancy basses.”)
playing in tune: ime, playing barre chords in rune is, if not impossible, extremely difficult to do in. perfect 5th and 4ths are dicier than a lot of other intervals.
the how is just boring, you just knuckle down and do it. painstakingly, slowly. shifts are where the fun happens.
cool. pretty much people will either it’s beautiful and comment only on that or bitch about the number of strings or it being an expensive coffee table.
some might even comment on the sound or how you play.
(gleaned from years of playing “fancy basses.”)
playing in tune: ime, playing barre chords in rune is, if not impossible, extremely difficult to do in. perfect 5th and 4ths are dicier than a lot of other intervals.
the how is just boring, you just knuckle down and do it. painstakingly, slowly. shifts are where the fun happens.
I'm super happy with my reverbs at the moment....and now I feel the pull to buy a Dark World. Damn it.
Generate vs create.
I wish I was better at expressing myself in written form.
Such complex ideas are difficult to adress in clear and articulate ways for me.
I wish I was better at expressing myself in written form.
Such complex ideas are difficult to adress in clear and articulate ways for me.
Oh, totally! Reminds me of a conversation I had with another composer about materials we’d used in some of our recent serial pieces, and I mentioned that one of my works that he’d asked about used two different multiplicative transformations in addition to the four standard row forms.
He said “With so many different row forms how can you maintain the identity of the piece?”
to which I replied “That’s my job; I’m the composer.”
....I won't be looking that up....Be glad there wasn’t an OTO BAM in that mix
I’ve got a few ideas on the subject bubbling but I’m holding back a response for now. I’d like to say some “conversational” things, but the linear nature of thread posts can make that difficult, so I’m gonna see which thoughts remain once the dust settles.
It isn't just music, it's all art. I can spend hours in a darkroom trying to get a photograph to look a certain way, or I can scan the negative in and make a few mouse clicks and the algorithm does it all for me. One makes me feel like I've accomplished something, the other results in a neat-looking image that I quickly forget about.
But that's just processing. At least I shot the photo myself. Now we have AI that generates images that mimic the style of famous painters. Some of it looks kind of cool at first, but it was generated by a dumb machine which had no knowledge of what it was doing, and that machine was in turn programmed by someone who may be far removed from the user and image in question.
So if this is "art" or "music", who's the "artist"?
I think this stuff gets fuzzy and hard to define. Procedurally generated music may be made using a program which is heavily controlled and monitored by its user. In that case we can say that there was agency and intention involved. But if you just start the program and walk away while it makes 5 hours of boring music...
But that's just processing. At least I shot the photo myself. Now we have AI that generates images that mimic the style of famous painters. Some of it looks kind of cool at first, but it was generated by a dumb machine which had no knowledge of what it was doing, and that machine was in turn programmed by someone who may be far removed from the user and image in question.
So if this is "art" or "music", who's the "artist"?
I think this stuff gets fuzzy and hard to define. Procedurally generated music may be made using a program which is heavily controlled and monitored by its user. In that case we can say that there was agency and intention involved. But if you just start the program and walk away while it makes 5 hours of boring music...
This “generation” topic always gets into an area that I call “artist vs. craftsman.” Music frequently gets assumed to be art, but I don’t agree with that premise as a given. Music can also be a craft, and I see arts and crafts as separate but related, with areas overlap.
Distilled and simplified, I see crafts as production-based, and art as expression/intention-based. If I were making a clay pot, there would be elements indicating my level of craftsmanship, such as the symmetry of the shape, and the smoothness of the finish. These are fundamental, repeatable elements necessary for the construction of a well made pot. Now, artistic elements can creep in, such as coloration, or intentionally “distorted” shapes, and the meaning of those elements and what they convey is the artistic message.
For music, a good backing band tends toward craftsmanship (IMHO). They provide a reliable foundation for a lead instrument to provide the artistic expression. In some cases, you have a cover band where the entire purpose of the entire band is to replicate existing, known songs, in which case “art” might be woven in, but it isn’t the objective. Alternatively, you might have a solo artist expressing a deep emotional concept and the purpose is to communicate that concept. The skill of the artist may not be top notch, but the message still could be. Plenty of punk bands were making good art with poor craftsmanship.
The waters can get murky because the observer often interprets a musical production differently from the producer. There’s that story about how Slash was doing a string skipping exercise that Axl heard and decided should be the intro for Sweet Child. One man’s craftsmanship exercise is another man’s artistic expression.
All that said, I gravitate toward the generative process these days. My physical limitations, my unrefined ear, and my amateur level understanding of composition limits my performing and composing abilities. I often trudge through sludge to complete a project. Having tools that facilitate composition of significant song elements is helpful. It allows me to focus on the elements I’m most interested in. For example, I hate writing drum parts, so I often resort to midi packs to avoid thinking about it. I only have so many hours in my day, and I do music as a hobby after work, so the time and brain damage savings is meaningful.
I certainly don’t think generative or AI music will or should replace all human music. However there’s a lot of variety under the umbrella term of music. I think the idea that generative compositions devalue music as a whole by any meaningful amount is unrealistic at this point in history. Generative music certain encroaches on certain areas of music production, though possibly because AI/generative music wasn’t truly an option until recent years.
Distilled and simplified, I see crafts as production-based, and art as expression/intention-based. If I were making a clay pot, there would be elements indicating my level of craftsmanship, such as the symmetry of the shape, and the smoothness of the finish. These are fundamental, repeatable elements necessary for the construction of a well made pot. Now, artistic elements can creep in, such as coloration, or intentionally “distorted” shapes, and the meaning of those elements and what they convey is the artistic message.
For music, a good backing band tends toward craftsmanship (IMHO). They provide a reliable foundation for a lead instrument to provide the artistic expression. In some cases, you have a cover band where the entire purpose of the entire band is to replicate existing, known songs, in which case “art” might be woven in, but it isn’t the objective. Alternatively, you might have a solo artist expressing a deep emotional concept and the purpose is to communicate that concept. The skill of the artist may not be top notch, but the message still could be. Plenty of punk bands were making good art with poor craftsmanship.
The waters can get murky because the observer often interprets a musical production differently from the producer. There’s that story about how Slash was doing a string skipping exercise that Axl heard and decided should be the intro for Sweet Child. One man’s craftsmanship exercise is another man’s artistic expression.
All that said, I gravitate toward the generative process these days. My physical limitations, my unrefined ear, and my amateur level understanding of composition limits my performing and composing abilities. I often trudge through sludge to complete a project. Having tools that facilitate composition of significant song elements is helpful. It allows me to focus on the elements I’m most interested in. For example, I hate writing drum parts, so I often resort to midi packs to avoid thinking about it. I only have so many hours in my day, and I do music as a hobby after work, so the time and brain damage savings is meaningful.
I certainly don’t think generative or AI music will or should replace all human music. However there’s a lot of variety under the umbrella term of music. I think the idea that generative compositions devalue music as a whole by any meaningful amount is unrealistic at this point in history. Generative music certain encroaches on certain areas of music production, though possibly because AI/generative music wasn’t truly an option until recent years.
- Mar 8, 2011
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- Authorized greenboy designs builder/Owner of BNA Audio
Though I haven’t responded yet, this recent thread is one of my favorites in quite awhile and I’m very much enjoying reading everyone’s thoughts on the subject .
Most of what keeps a roof over my head being a musician is way more craft than art and I struggle with it at times, which isn’t to say it can’t be fun or even interesting.
Still figuring out techniques/tricks to do solo electronic stuff live. Even though there’s a lot of work involved in making my own samples and patches, I don’t just want to ‘press play’ to show folks the results of what I’ve been doing at home. The only way I know to avoid that is to risk large amounts of failure/malfunction and not cling to the original arrangement of the piece of music the performance is based on.
You guys are articulating it better than me and I gotta go to soundcheck, so I’ll stop boring everyone
Most of what keeps a roof over my head being a musician is way more craft than art and I struggle with it at times, which isn’t to say it can’t be fun or even interesting.
Still figuring out techniques/tricks to do solo electronic stuff live. Even though there’s a lot of work involved in making my own samples and patches, I don’t just want to ‘press play’ to show folks the results of what I’ve been doing at home. The only way I know to avoid that is to risk large amounts of failure/malfunction and not cling to the original arrangement of the piece of music the performance is based on.
You guys are articulating it better than me and I gotta go to soundcheck, so I’ll stop boring everyone
Yep. It should be the good news that we can get what we want when we want it, but it ain’t.
Still figuring out techniques/tricks to do solo electronic stuff live. Even though there’s a lot of work involved in making my own samples and patches, I don’t just want to ‘press play’ to show folks the results of what I’ve been doing at home. The only way I know to avoid that is to risk large amounts of failure/malfunction and not cling to the original arrangement of the piece of music the performance is based on.
You guys are articulating it better than me and I gotta go to soundcheck, so I’ll stop boring everyone
I haven't done a live gig since the pandemic started, but back when I was gigging I realized that solo electronic shows were much more difficult than just playing bass in my rock band. Operating all that machinery by yourself is a lot of pressure and takes at least as much practice and rehearsal as playing in a band, yet at time it feels less musical, since I'm mainly starting and stopping sequencers, setting up patches, and so on, with just a little lead playing. Interesting to think about but I enjoy both.
