Double Bass Amp for both double bass and electric

[MartinBorgen]

I'm posting here, because i figure the upright part is the hardest aspect.

this is still only on an future planning stage, so as to know how much money i have to save... (student economy you know...)

im planning on buying a combo or rig that can handle both my double bass (Thomann 111BR) and my electric bass guitar (Yamaha BB414). i have no pickup or mick to use with my double bass, so it is from scratch.

thing is, I am relativeley new to double bass. i havent yet listened to different pickups and such, but i have this feeling in the back of my head that pickups don't give this acoustic tone, which is what i love about the double bass. hence im currently thinking of a mic, but mic trhough an amp? and all the feedback issues, etc....

oh, and i will mainly be playing jazz on the double bass, but i want the rig to handle for eg. classic rock on my electric bass too...

is it possible?

 

[AMJBASS]

Do a search in the amp forum, there are quite a few threads on "doubling" amps for Double Bass and Electric. I'd probably lean towards the Markbass Mini CMD121 with an extension speaker. One piece of advice... get a pickup instead of a mic especially if you are doubling through the same amp. A mic through an amp is hit or miss. With a good pickup(Fishman Full Circle, Realist), you can still get a very natural sound but without the feedback/bleed problems of a mic.

 

[Uncletoad]

Yes it is possible. It's always a huge compromise.

I'd like you to spend some time combing the archives and ask more specific questions once you've done so. This is a huge huge topic that has been discussed here over and over for many many years. There is no simple solution and there is no "one solution". There are more specifics that are easier to discuss once you become more familiar with what's available and what's possible. This is all very well documented here.

 

[MartinBorgen]

ok, i've already searched a few topics, but from your answers, this seem to be only the top.

will be back once i know what to look for..

 

[Uncletoad]

Yea it's a mess. And usually these threads end up a popularity contest rather than useful information. Have to read to some depth to get past the "I love my amp" thing. You'll start to see some patterns if you read enough.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

thing is, I am relativeley new to double bass. i havent yet listened to different pickups and such, but i have this feeling in the back of my head that pickups don't give this acoustic tone, which is what i love about the double bass. hence im currently thinking of a mic, but mic trhough an amp? and all the feedback issues, etc....

If you think about it, amplification is a relatively recent thing in the double bass world. The amps we drool over were unknown until maybe 1980 or so with the advent of Walter Woods. When did Polytone hit? Point is? Many of the jazz icons who showed the way never knew what an amp was. They got their sound the old fashioned way; they earned it.

Developing the acoustic tone we desire comes primarily from everything that comes BEFORE the pickup. First, you have to know what tone you want. Next, develop the technique (callusses are part of that) and learn how to pull that tone out of your bass.

Find a pickup or mic that works with your bass and THEN choose an amp. You simply can't pull a nice acoustic tone out of your amp if it isn't going into the input!

That said, as Toad said, there are plenty of threads here discussing all aspects of amplification. Personally, I've tried much of the stuff mentioned and pretty much given up. MarkBass works well enough for me. I can hear myself on a gig and get a reasonably warm tone. 'Nuf said.

My advice would be to find an amp that works well with your electric bass and use Fdeck's HPF pre with your upright. It should be fine.

I'm really trying to save you the trouble. Been there, done that. Put your emphasis into getting the best acoustic tone you possibly can and THEN work on the output.

Good luck to you.

 

[Lester4string]

+1 to the advice about the Fishman Full Circle and Markbass combo. In addition you will want to purchase a preamp. (I use a K&K dual channel preamp - this helps me switch between upright and electric without swaping cables mid-gig). My LMIII sounds passable without the preamp.

The benefits.
Rig is small, makes up for having to lug around upright.
Amp is clean and has lots of power

So here are the limitations...

I think my whole set up could use a bit of compression/limiter (this would defeat any possibility of feedback on stage.
As the amp is clean, it gets great jazz/folk tone, but when I want to play rock, I add my pedal board to enhance the tone a bit.

 

[MartinBorgen]

EDIT: two new replies while i was posting. have read those, and will check up the stuff you mention. /EDIT

i've read a few threads where it was linked to other threads about the same subject, that linked to even older threads and posts about this subject.

my first problem was i found myself googling mics and preams all the time, because of the sheer ammount of new units that people reccomend...

however, i have narrowed down a little of what i'm looking for.

First, i wonder if there is a good mic that works for Live, preferably not that expensive, but most of all, not too good on picking up leakage and bleed. i've heard people get good result with an MD421 but many say they are too fragile for live work. others recommend a small condesner between the bridge legs, mounted upwards (or a SM57 upwards), but i couldnt find much info on the feedback from this setup.

in this case, i would need some way of getting the mic signal to the amp, in which case some kind of preamp would be required, or just a rather odd amp.

with the pickup issue, there is the problems of having an not too expensive one that sounds good. preferably i would need to test, but i cannot afford to test different pickups, considering you cannot just walk in to a shop and start to dissasemble the bass and installing pickups in all those wierd places. also here is the preamp needed.

how hard would it be to get a mic through a preamp into a normal amp? i have a rack mic amplifier with phantom feeding and all that, but i'm not too sure of how that amps line out is compatibe with a bass amplifier's line in.

the amp on the other hand would preferably be able to have both basses plugged at the same time, so i can switch easily. GK fusion 550 comes to mind, not too sure if i will be able to afford one if i need to get pickups and preamps and all that cirkus too...

also, i'm wondering if a combo isn't preferable in this case...

 

[Mark Perna]

It's certainly possible although it would, as others have said, require compromise. The last amp I used for both was a Polytone Minibrute IV and that was a bunch of years ago. I still use the Poly for electric occasionally but the last time I tried using it for upright, I cringed not believing I ever thought that it was acceptable. At the time, it was the best I could do. Since that time, amp technology has roared forward and more options have developed for upright-specific amps (which was formerly pretty much monopolized by Walter Woods). Quite frankly, if I played electric more often, I'd probably want a different amp for it as well. Markbass is supposed to be excellent and someday I'm probably going to try one.

The problem for me is that I want different things out of the amp for electric and upright. On upright, I like small preferably downfacing speakers and an as uncolored sound as possible (which, for me, is Acoustic Image amps and speakers). On electric, I like big speakers (15 inch) and a more colored sound. There simply isn't a single amp that can meet those demands.

If you decide to go the single amp route, you'll probably want to decide which instrument is your main one (upright or electric) and buy an amp that makes that instrument sound best but is still acceptable for the other.

One of the problems you're going to face with the upright amp is it is a lifelong affair figuring out how to best amplify an upright. Each bass is unique and responds differently (many times drastically so) to different pickups, strings, amps etc. Finding what works best is a long, tedious and usually expensive search. What this means is that you can read every post TB ever posted and still come away with almost no information that will actually help you because what works for one guy likely doesn't work for the next and won't work for you. Like life itself, it is your journey alone. Read to get ideas and start experimenting.

Good luck with your search.

mark

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Yes it is possible. It's always a huge compromise.

I'd like you to spend some time combing the archives and ask more specific questions once you've done so. This is a huge huge topic that has been discussed here over and over for many many years. There is no simple solution and there is no "one solution". There are more specifics that are easier to discuss once you become more familiar with what's available and what's possible. This is all very well documented here.

+1. Need more posts like this.

 

[Tampabass]

a few things to remember:

1)You don't have to get the El Perfecto combination of pick-up and amp/speaker right here, right now. Try a few, and then try to buy below value (which you can often do here on Talkbass, but never at your local music superstore), so that if/when you make a change you won't lose your shirt in the selling/buying process. You can upgrade later, as you get a better handle on how you might try reproducing that tone you have in mind. No reason to get bogged down by over-analyzing a billion possible combinations.

2)Don't caught up in getting the glorious boutique brand(s) that are the all-time favorites of the world's top bassists, or whatever. Because, unless your budget is unlimited, those items are gonna break the bank. And, back to 1, you can move up later.

3)Portability really helps, particularly when you're taking upright and electric(s) on the gig. IMO, there's just no reason to get super-heavy equipment these days, with all the ultralight designs happening.

My own experience: For years, I got the upright sound (on a 100-year-old upright, carved, round back) I liked via my old Polytone Mini-Brute. It finally got a bit too decrepit so I got rid of it.
I recently bought a GK MB-210 and I've been blown away by how well, and how naturally it reproduces my upright sound. Lots of volume, lots of presence, lots of clarity, no issues with capturing the full range of the low tones. For now, it's close enough to perfect (and another benefit of the 210, for me - if I need, I can add my Epifani UL-112 as an extension cab).
I've used the same old Underwood pickup for probably 15 years. Years ago, I used a Fishman. I've never tried a Realist.
My electric (currently, a Fender Marcus Miller 4) sounds great through the GK, too. It's very light, too - 33 pounds.

 

[Ric Vice]

I'm posting here, because i figure the upright part is the hardest aspect.

this is still only on an future planning stage, so as to know how much money i have to save... (student economy you know...)

im planning on buying a combo or rig that can handle both my double bass (Thomann 111BR) and my electric bass guitar (Yamaha BB414). i have no pickup or mick to use with my double bass, so it is from scratch.

thing is, I am relativeley new to double bass. i havent yet listened to different pickups and such, but i have this feeling in the back of my head that pickups don't give this acoustic tone, which is what i love about the double bass. hence im currently thinking of a mic, but mic trhough an amp? and all the feedback issues, etc....

oh, and i will mainly be playing jazz on the double bass, but i want the rig to handle for classic rock on my electric bass too...

is it possible?

Since I too, have spent many hours combing these threads I'll just condense what I have read from them.

There seems to be a consensus, that the GK MBE or MBS are some of the most, affordable, lightweight, and best sounding amps for Double Bass. I haven't heard the newer GK MB combos, but my guess is that they will sound very good as well. They are more powerful than the MBS or MBE and have a simpler EQ section than the MBE which I prefer, because, in my case more knobs, mean more confusion. Since you are playing more than one style of music, the newer, more powerful GK's are probably going to work better. The MBS and MBE have their limitations because they are low wattage amps with tiny sealed cabinets. Great for DB, not so great for EB at louder volumes.

Although I love Markbass Amps for Electric Bass. The VLF and VPE filters are difficult to workaround for Double Bass and they have a 500 K ohm input impedance which isn't usually what you want for a pickup.

For the basic setup, one of the microphones that seems to work best is the Shure SM 57, and it's very affordable. However, unless you are used to working with a mic and it's inconsistencies, then it's probably better to get a something like the Fishman Full Circle or the Realist, learn how to EQ a pickup and add the mic later on in the game.

Ric

 

[Uncletoad]

I can't imagine doing a reasonable job on a "classic rock" gig with a GK combo.

I think separate cabs and heads where you can mix and match stuff works better if you can afford it.

Here's my take. There is no perfect single amp/speaker combo that kicks ass on both classic rock gigs and small jazz combo gigs. That's why I have so much stuff. If I'm hauling out my PBass to play Sweet Home Alabama I'm not bringing a GK combo, I'm more likely to bring an SVT. Likewise if I'm playing a jazz brunch where I'm walpaper music I don't even need an amp, I'm playing my string bass by itself.

You have to evaluate what is required on the gigs you are doing. Examine what your priorities are, you can't probably afford to cover them all equally well. You have to be clear about your budget and then reconcile what's available with both your priorities and budget.

In the beginning I suggest keeping it simple. If you are using the string bass without an amp and using some kind of PA a mic is useful otherwise I wouldn't go there first. Get a good pickup like a Full Circle or Realist or whatever you please and plug it into something DB friendly that you can afford.

If that thing can pinch hit on your Rock gigs great if not, get something else for them....unless you don't have the budget for all that. In that case you have to decide what's more important, the tone of your bass on the rock gig or the string bass on the jazz gig...compromise where you have to.

 

[MartinBorgen]

Since I too, have spent many hours combing these threads I'll just condense what I have read from them.

There seems to be a consensus, that the GK MBE or MBS are some of the most, affordable, lightweight, and best sounding amps for Double Bass. I haven't heard the newer GK MB combos, but my guess is that they will sound very good as well. They are more powerful than the MBS or MBE and have a simpler EQ section than the MBE which I prefer, because, in my case more knobs, mean more confusion. Since you are playing more than one style of music, the newer, more powerful GK's are probably going to work better. The MBS and MBE have their limitations because they are low wattage amps with tiny sealed cabinets. Great for DB, not so great for EB at louder volumes.

Although I love Markbass Amps for Electric Bass. The VLF and VPE filters are difficult to workaround for Double Bass and they have a 500 K ohm input impedance which isn't usually what you want for a pickup.

For the basic setup, one of the microphones that seems to work best is the Shure SM 57, and it's very affordable. However, unless you are used to working with a mic and it's inconsistencies, then it's probably better to get a something like the Fishman Full Circle or the Realist, learn how to EQ a pickup and add the mic later on in the game.

Ric

That is what i feel too. the GK GAS is rising

also, i study audio engineering, record, mixes and generally handles the SM57 alot, and it is my current plan to use one if i get a loud gig. i heard a good one is to chuck it in a tiolet paper roll, roll off enough to make it fit the brige and then just go... havent tried yet thou..

also, on some other thread it was lotss of people talking about 10" elements or smaller for DB (makes sense), which i think fits my prefered sound on EB too. For example the MB210 wiht two 10" would probably fill my needs for DB, and most for smaller EB purposes, and then i can connect an external cab to it (say a 115 or something) if i want some more OOMPF to the EB.

GAS GAS...

 

[MartinBorgen]

I can't imagine doing a reasonable job on a "classic rock" gig with a GK combo.

I think separate cabs and heads where you can mix and match stuff works better if you can afford it.

Here's my take. There is no perfect single amp/speaker combo that kicks ass on both classic rock gigs and small jazz combo gigs. That's why I have so much stuff. If I'm hauling out my PBass to play Sweet Home Alabama I'm not bringing a GK combo, I'm more likely to bring an SVT. Likewise if I'm playing a jazz brunch where I'm walpaper music I don't even need an amp, I'm playing my string bass by itself.

You have to evaluate what is required on the gigs you are doing. Examine what your priorities are, you can't probably afford to cover them all equally well. You have to be clear about your budget and then reconcile what's available with both your priorities and budget.

In the beginning I suggest keeping it simple. If you are using the string bass without an amp and using some kind of PA a mic is useful otherwise I wouldn't go there first. Get a good pickup like a Full Circle or Realist or whatever you please and plug it into something DB friendly that you can afford.

If that thing can pinch hit on your Rock gigs great if not, get something else for them....unless you don't have the budget for all that. In that case you have to decide what's more important, the tone of your bass on the rock gig or the string bass on the jazz gig...compromise where you have to.

"classic rock" was just something i said instead of trying to explainin what kind of music i wanted to play with my EB.

im more into jazzy playing than rock, so main requirement for rock is that it works, and in an emergency sounds ok with an ounce of OD/valvedrive (thou im more of a clean tone guy). i might buy an orange stack or something later if i feel i have to, but as i dont plan starting playing in a rock band for a while, that'll have to wait. it's just that i'm not too keen on buying something that's unusable for what is considered "normal" music.

also, my main experience form rock gigs are that you barley hear what kind of bass youre playing on throught the PA, which is what the audience hear - much less what rig it is. mostly you only hear bass, and that's what most people care about.

that said, i appreciate your wiev. of course i must first throughly try some of the interesting things mantioned here, and not just google for opinions and reading specifications.

 

[Ric Vice]

That is what i feel too. the GK GAS is rising
also, i study audio engineering, record, mixes and generally handles the SM57 alot, and it is my current plan to use one if i get a loud gig. i heard a good one is to chuck it in a tiolet paper roll, roll off enough to make it fit the brige and then just go... havent tried yet thou..

That's precisely why I wouldn't recommend using a microphone first before you try a pickup. They are a little tricky to mount and they tend to feedback in all kinds of interesting ways without some kind of Lo Cut and Notch Filters.

also, on some other thread it was lotss of people talking about 10" elements or smaller for DB (makes sense), which i think fits my prefered sound on EB too. For example the MB210 wiht two 10" would probably fill my needs for DB, and most for smaller EB purposes, and then i can connect an external cab to it (say a 115 or something) if i want some more OOMPF to the EB.
GAS GAS...

It's very hard to generalize about Double Basses and specific speaker sizes. I prefer the sound of multiple bass drivers, coupled with, midrange drivers, and tweeters, but those cabinets are really expensive. Other players get just as good a sound as I do with 15" Bass Drivers and a tweeter or no tweeter at all! For that matter, I got a pretty good sound out of my 35 watt Ampeg B-15N, but I don't want to carry around a 80 pound amplifier, because there are lighter options now. Electric Basses do need a little more oomph in the low frequency department, but it can be accomplished with multiple 10's, 12's or single 15's. As an all around unit the 2x10 is very serviceable but it will also weigh more.

Ric

 

[peterpalmieri]

Unless you are planning on playing both instruments on the same gig I highly recommend that you DO NOT attempt to put together one rig that can do both. Especially if you want to use a mic and are on a budget.

Here are a few quotes from a Ron Carter interview I recently reread:

What do you think of bassists who use only a mic without a pickup?
I think they are making a mistake. They want to sound like we did in the ’50s, but I don’t know any bassist who played back then who would want to go back to that setup. They had no chance to be heard—and 50 years later, bass players who prefer that setup still can’t be heard. Once the drummer picks up some sticks, the bass player’s sound is inaudible. How can that be acceptable to him? Or to the bandleader’s manager, or to anyone who’s concerned with the group’s sound? What’s wrong with that picture?

From what I have heard, I’ve been a little dismayed at how many bass players haven’t matched a pickup with their instruments. You don’t just go out and buy a pickup that works; every bass responds differently to different pickups. I’d like to see bassists invest the money to get the best sound. Same thing with amplifiers—what’s the best amp for the sound you’re looking for, or for the pickup you’re using, or for the strings you have on? It should be a real laboratory mentality, but many players just buy an amp or a pickup that somebody else uses, and they plug it in and they’re comfortable with that.

Full article if anyone is interested: http://www.bassplayer.com/article/ron-carter-/Sep-03/814

 

[MartinBorgen]

Unless you are planning on playing both instruments on the same gig I highly recommend that you DO NOT attempt to put together one rig that can do both. Especially if you want to use a mic and are on a budget.

Here are a few quotes from a Ron Carter interview I recently reread:

What do you think of bassists who use only a mic without a pickup?
I think they are making a mistake. They want to sound like we did in the ’50s, but I don’t know any bassist who played back then who would want to go back to that setup. They had no chance to be heard—and 50 years later, bass players who prefer that setup still can’t be heard. Once the drummer picks up some sticks, the bass player’s sound is inaudible. How can that be acceptable to him? Or to the bandleader’s manager, or to anyone who’s concerned with the group’s sound? What’s wrong with that picture?

From what I have heard, I’ve been a little dismayed at how many bass players haven’t matched a pickup with their instruments. You don’t just go out and buy a pickup that works; every bass responds differently to different pickups. I’d like to see bassists invest the money to get the best sound. Same thing with amplifiers—what’s the best amp for the sound you’re looking for, or for the pickup you’re using, or for the strings you have on? It should be a real laboratory mentality, but many players just buy an amp or a pickup that somebody else uses, and they plug it in and they’re comfortable with that.

Full article if anyone is interested: http://www.bassplayer.com/article/ron-carter-/Sep-03/814

hmm... as i said, i have yet to try a pickup so my opinions are only prejudices, i hope i'm wrong because a pickup seems alot handier than a mic...

 

[Uncletoad]

Mics though an amp are a HUGE pain in the ass. Not reccomended for a newbie without money to burn and a lot of patience. The majority of those that use mics through an amp use pickups with them.

Mic through a PA without an amp can be fine depending on the gig, the players, the venue. Better sonicly than most pickups. However many many gigs aren't that friendly. Pickups and amps will serve you better in those situations.

I'd try a Full Circle, a Realist, a Rev Solo on the bass and see which one sounds better to you. Start there.

 

[MartinBorgen]

Mics though an amp are a HUGE pain in the ass. Not reccomended for a newbie without money to burn and a lot of patience. The majority of those that use mics through an amp use pickups with them.

Mic through a PA without an amp can be fine depending on the gig, the players, the venue. Better sonicly than most pickups. However many many gigs aren't that friendly. Pickups and amps will serve you better in those situations.

I'd try a Full Circle, a Realist, a Rev Solo on the bass and see which one sounds better to you. Start there.

ah, yes i think those was reccomended on a few other threads, so at least some pattern in this pickup mess. i think i will give it a go when i get a chance to test one/some of them. thanks for your help