Amp setup idea. Will it work? Will it sound any good

[acheron9865]

Hello everyone. There is an amp setup that I have been wanting to try but before I pull the trigger I need to know if it will even work. Im running a sansamp RPM to a crown xls 2000. That is feeding a 1x15 and a 4x10. What I want to try and do is split the output from the RPM and feed it into a DBX 215s and eq each signal to make one for highs and punchyness and the other for lows. They will then (potentially) feed into a double input sonic maximizer for polish and hightened clarity. From there into the power amp and to the speakers. Sending the highs to the 4x10 and the lows to th 1x15. I was going to try the EQ alone first before messing with the maximizer.

Has anyone ever tried this kind of set up? Will I lose any signal integrity splitting it off the back of the RPM?

Thanks in advance!

 

[will33]

Try it the other way around. 15 on the highs.

Or better yet, get cabs that are actually designed for a biamp application.

 

[acheron9865]

Would this set up even work with out a proper biamp capable cab?

 

[Bass_Pounder]

1X15 + 4X10 setup, whether bi-amped or not is just a bad idea from a long time ago.

Plenty of reading on the subject can be found here with a simple search.

 

[acheron9865]

Fair enough, I can see why that would be optimal. For arguments sake, lets say then I have 2 4x10s like many advise to have. Can one simply put a Y on the back of their preamp with no signal integrity loss?

 

[will33]

Fair enough, I can see why that would be optimal. For arguments sake, lets say then I have 2 4x10s like many advise to have. Can one simply put a Y on the back of their preamp with no signal integrity loss?

You shouldn't need one re: powering the cabs.

Could split the signal any number of ways upstream before you sum it back together.

If you mean a Y cable off the bass to go to two separate preamps...you could. The loss could be made up by simply running the inputs on the pres higher. Or by putting a clean boost/driver of some sort first in line and split off of that so each pre would get a full strength pickup signal. This could be an effects pedal with its effect turned off, just used as a bit of gain boost, or something inexpensive like a TubeMP or other simple mic pre.

Depending on the specific pres, there might be a way to patch an uneffected signal from one to the other without needing the extra booster.

You then run the poweramp in stereo putting one pre on each channel input and one cab on each channel output.

 

[acheron9865]

Ah I see. So there is no way to actually split the output of the pre into two signals, and manipulate it from there. when I say Y I mean a male end to 2 male end cable into the inputs on the EQ. The power amp also has 2 channels.

 

[will33]

You'd need a proper crossover to truly split the bandwidth. That's a bit different than using 2 preamps setting up one for a bassy tone and the other for a middy or effected tone. Though they'd be eq'd differently, the bandwidth isn't truly split (and may not have to be depending on the desired result).

With the speaker thing, what people are alluding to is the old "15 for lows, 10's for punch" thing is largely a myth nowdays.

For lows, you want the cab that can displace the most air. Aside from purpose designed, LF specific, high excursion woofers (which won't play mids and highs very well), that usually means the bass cab with the most cone area, hence trying your 410 on the lows.

Mids and highs don't need near as much speaker or power to make them as loud as lows, hence trying the 115 up there. You could even use a small guitar cab for character, or a vocal PA cab for clean reproduction up there if you're going to dial the low frequency out of them.

That's what I meant by cabs that are actually designed for biamp applications. They can forgo having to reproduce the whole signal in order to excell at reproducing a specific part of it.

"Bass cabs" are designed to play the whole bandwidth by themselves, so, no LF specific subwoofers or large format HF horns.

 

[acheron9865]

Just for clarity so we are on the same page (forgive the crudely drawn picture). Wanted to make sure it was understood I'm looking to use one preamp with one 2 channel power amp. Thank you BTW for the explanation of the cab types. That makes a lot of sense. Its always been said to me that the bigger the speaker the better it is for lows but clearly from what you said it isn't always for volume.

 

[will33]

Just for clarity so we are on the same page (forgive the crudely drawn picture). Wanted to make sure it was understood I'm looking to use one preamp with one 2 channel power amp. Thank you BTW for the explanation of the cab types. That makes a lot of sense. Its always been said to me that the bigger the speaker the better it is for lows but clearly from what you said it isn't always for volume.

Not a traditional signal path but It might work that way too. There's probably enough gain stages in the preamp and eq's to not need an additional booster pedal, if you use rackmount eq's that are happy with a line level signal.

I'd see that the output of the pre doesn't have to go above line level in order to properly drive the poweramp (input sensitivity) so you don't end up clipping the eq units or have to use them as makeshift gain reducers.

 

[acheron9865]

The EQ im looking at has gain control on both channels that can cut or boost up to 12 DB so I dont think that will be an issue. I may give this a go then. Once I have this all set up its time to start investigating a new set of cabs. I will definitely be giving 2 4x10s a go. Thank you for all your help!

 

[will33]

Next comes the "why do this?" Part.

Are you going to have a footswitch to toggle between the two eq's/cabs to get different tones off the same pre?

In that case, you'd only be playing one cab at a time, at least sometimes.

Do you want to run them both all the time, letting their different tones blend together in the room?

In that case, having identical cabs may not make much sense. You could use an LF cab that keeps your lows full and clean on one channel, and a different cab that puts a character you like on the rest of the sound on the other channel.

There are some cabs like Fearful, AudioKinesis, Acme, Barefaced, etc. that take some of the advantages of biamping and put them in a single unit you can just plug into and play.

Advantages such as LF specific woofers that can make bigger, more extended lows than common bass cabs, and small format mid/high drivers that disperse those frequencies widely across the audience.

These cabs are generally designed to be clean "reproducers" of sound. Intended for your signal processing to be done upstream with the speaker adding little color of it's own. The frequencies are split internally via a passive crossover and they're generally less gear to carry than a real biamped system.

Some advantages of biamping the old-school way are the ability to set crossover points and power distribution yourself, thus "voicing" the rig. Scaling up and down as needed. The ability to use "colored" speakers in the system that are more "tone creators" rather than "sound reproducers", coloring the system to your liking.

You'll also have to think about where/how you're going to tap out of this system and into a mixing console for PA supported larger gigs so all your tone flavoring will actually make it to the house.

 

[will33]

Also those cabs I mentioned are boutique items. You could probably setup a whole biamped system with old school gear (heavy cabs and poweramps) for the cost of one large (loudest) version of those cabs.

Of course, you'd have to carry all that old stuff too, but it can have its benefits if you want speakers that create tone rather than reproduce it.

 

[acheron9865]

I would definitely be running them both all the time, so the LF cab and the character cab would be optimal. The part of this signal chain that is stumping me is tapping out of it into the PA. There is of course the pre amp out on the back of the pre but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the splitting. I also feel like the sound guy would tell me to piss off if I said I had two DI outs on my rig. Very conflicted on this whole thing. Could always add a second pre and run the eqs through their respective effects loop but that would still not be too fun for patching into the PA.

 

[BassmanPaul]

To Bi-amp you don't need two EQs you need an active crossover or a pre-amp with one built in. A mix of 4x10 and 1x15 is poor at the best of times. Using a 4x10 for highs is ridiculous when you consider it's work could be done by a 6" mid range driver in a tiny head box. The whole concept of tens for punchiness and fifteens for lows is a myth that has long been debunked.

There really is so much information on this that the search function should bring up.

P.S. Hi Will!

 

[will33]

To Bi-amp you don't need two EQs you need an active crossover or a pre-amp with one built in. A mix of 4x10 and 1x15 is poor at the best of times. Using a 4x10 for highs is ridiculous when you consider it's work could be done by a 6" mid range driver in a tiny head box. The whole concept of tens for punchiness and fifteens for lows is a myth that has long been debunked.

There really is so much information on this that the search function should bring up.

P.S. Hi Will!

Hi Paul.

It's this guys first day. Go easy on the youngster.

 

[will33]

I would definitely be running them both all the time, so the LF cab and the character cab would be optimal. The part of this signal chain that is stumping me is tapping out of it into the PA. There is of course the pre amp out on the back of the pre but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the splitting. I also feel like the sound guy would tell me to piss off if I said I had two DI outs on my rig. Very conflicted on this whole thing. Could always add a second pre and run the eqs through their respective effects loop but that would still not be too fun for patching into the PA.

It can be a pain in the ass getting some soundguys to put one mic on a bass rig let alone two (one on each cab). Most just want to throw you a DI and move on.

That's why some guys like cleaner "PA/monitor" type speakers like that on stage. Their tone off a single DI into the PA is then more representative of the tone they like, as they are also hearing it through a PA-style speaker system with the tone all created upstream via effects pedals and a preamp.

It's one way to skin the cat, but not the only one.

If you're doing original music on 4-5 band bills where each band plays one set, getting the bands changed over quickly and not losing audience is key. They mix you on the fly and getting decent vocals and kick/snare happening is priority one. Bass guitar is at the bottom of the list.

You've a better chance of getting your playing into the ears of your audience if you can just give them a single DI line that already sounds good without relying on your stage speaker for tone coloring.

If you're successful enough to have (pay) your own dedicated soundman, and/or you're doing 4 hour gigs where you're the only band all night, then they've more time to mess with more elaborate setups.

 

[acheron9865]

Haha thanks guys. To my own credit the original question was just about signal chain. It kind of evolved to the speaker discussion after that . I do appreciate all the info anyway. Thanks a ton Will

 

[BassmanPaul]

Hey! He IS young too! Welcome OP (that's Original Poster BTW). The search function is an invaluable research tool. Pretty much every question you can imagine has been posed and answered on this site. You just need to look for it.

Many people think that they can combine production cabinets to reach a certain desired result. Unfortunately it mostly doesn't work that way leading to frustration. Bi-amping is an older technique in bass amps, though still valid if properly done, that is no longer popular. The advent of high power passive crossovers inside multi way cabinets has rendered the system almost obsolete for most bass players.

 

[will33]

You can run as elaborate a rig as you want, and use it to full effect at smaller gigs where the bass isn't in the PA.

I'd just make sure you have a known setting that sounds decent through a single DI line, played back through a mixer and PA system (or studio monitors or headphones) that you can just throw and go those times you need to.