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Amp "tone" unimportant when using di?

#42
To the OP, you may want to check out the Zoom b3 the amp sim and DI sims are really great, there is a thread about using the B3 as a pre-amp. I have been experimenting trying to get a decent FOH myself , I play bass and do the sound for my band. I use my amp on stage for monitoring only, and run the b3 direct to the board. I never have my bass in the wedge monitors. Like others have said the bass tone you like in your bedroom or rehearsal is a starting point,depending on the room the gig is in I have to make changes to the amp settings. If we have a sound guy, I have them take the signal from the B3 and let them do their job.

Funny story , we were playing a show at a casino with an experienced sound guy. During our first set I was getting so aggravated with him, my bass was getting boomy and then back to normal through out the whole set.
When we finished the set I went over to talk to him, I asked are you changing the bass levels? He said no and I told him what was happening. He did not know what it could be.
I'am a sound guy groupie, the other band members will go and chat with the ladies but not me I chat with the sound guy.
During our conversation we started talking about the QSC speakers and I was like wow ! you get all the bass with no subs. He said there are subs we have 4 18's under the stage!!!! That's were the boom was coming from, the closer I went to the front of the stage the more bass I could hear!!! I was standing on the subs !! Lol!!!

Just had to share that. I guess the point is we never know what sound is coming from the FOH.

Sorry for the long winded post!
 
#43
fnordlyone said:
Fnord, the newb, trying to learn. I'm researching for my first rig and play rock 5 string. There's a lot to absorb, but I think I'm starting to wrap my head around this techno mumbo jumbo. Tell me how wrong I am and why!
A good DI (REDDI, Sansamp, etc) is the preferred mode of shaping tone/sound. Before that it's the fingers, strings and wood, then the pickups. There appears to be no reason to buy amp heads that have built in pre amps, di's, eq's, or really any such knobs, since that's Sansamp's job. Hence, it is foolish to spend tons of money on an amp with such features. What one really needs is a reliable Watt generator to push the cabs (merely an electrical transference box), nothing fancy.
Please advise, vets.
Click to expand...

For a newb, you are on to something :hiding:

I've played countless gigs where the soundguy just runs a DI after my pedalboard. Therefore I do all my soundsculpting on the board; preamp, compression, gate, etc. while my amp, a GK1001rb-II, is all about super-clean watts and lots of 'em.
 
#44
prd004 said:
My least favorite method is the post eq di off of an amp. I never use this unless the bassist insists on it.
The EQ settings on your amps head are reacting with your speaker cabinet, so it just may not sound as good FOH as you think it does from your cab.

A mic and a straight DI blend will yield awesome results and make just about everybody happy
Click to expand...


While I understand that the amp's EQ doesn't *necessarily* translate to good EQ for a send to the PA, in my own instance, I prefer to run post-EQ DI from my amp for a couple of reasons:

I gig either a Mesa M-pulse 600 or Genz-Benz Streamliner 900 - both have great sounding DIs that add a fair amount of tube warmth *if* run post-EQ - I want that tube warmth in my sound... I have chosen my basses/amps/cabs so that I can run almost dead flat on my settings, and still nail the tone I want - so, my post-EQ send is very "useable" for the guy at at the board... I know this because I gig ALOT, and always talk to the soundman - I know every decent soundman in my area, and have a good working relationship with all of them...

Next - my amps won't mute my DI send in pre-EQ mode, when I need to mute to tune or change basses - apparantly, this is not uncommon, either... I don't typically use pedals, and don't want one in my signal chain if I can avoid it... If I absolutely have to, I can switch my Streamliner to pre-EQ and put a Pitchblack in my chain, but really prefer not to - and my M-P 600 is racked with a wireless and DTR-2000 tuner, a setup which is a pain in the neck to rearrange my signal to accomodate a "pre-EQ/tuner in signal chain" arrangement...

I always go thru the PA, and have played several thousand gigs in my life - currently, I'm at pace to play over 100 gigs this year, FWIW... I'll still do what needs to be done to make things work, but it's certainly true that not all situations are the same...


- georgestrings
 
#46
fnordlyone said:
It just seems my major price point is the cash on the amp head and since there are inexpensive pre amps/di's (whatever their called). I thought: why not get a higher watt (reliable) amp head without the frills, if that savings could be put to the 410hf. Any further thoughts?
thanks guys
f
Click to expand...

Just to be clear: All amps will be limited in their production of volume by the cab you run them through. A 500 watt amp is going to be just as loud as a 10,000 watt amp run through a 410HLF. Further more the cab you choose will be the most important part of your tone IMHO. The further down the signal chain the more important the piece of gear is. If you are splitting your signal and sending it to the monkey behind the mixing desk, his control and the equipment he is running will determine how you sound out in the room. He can make the best/most expensive DI sound like crap, or make a cheepo sound fantastic.

I do things a little differently than a lot of guys in this thread. I run a cab that is fairly flat in its response. The "baked in tone" is that of a quality PA. So the sound of my DI through the PA is quite similar to what is coming out of my stage rig.

All that said, I do bring enough stage rig to cover just about any venue. Should there be PA support I can always turn down.
 
#47
AdamR said:
Best advice in this thread.
Click to expand...

+1. In my brief experience (around 15 gigs) I always took my time to discuss (ahem, ahem...I mean learn) with/from the sound guy, and shape the tone on the board. We got re-invited to the same venue 3 times, and I keep seeing the same Sound Engineer in my villages and all the villages around. He already knows how to adjust my signal when our 2 or 3 songs with heavy slap kick-in.
 
#49
two fingers said:
"your tone" may sound amazing by itself. But it could sound like crap in a mix.
Click to expand...

it could, but it could also sound amazing. why assume that it will be crap and not give the player a chance before slapping on a DI?

I worked hard to find a tone that works with my band and while it won't sound identical to my cab it will be close enough in the PA for the soundman to be able to tweak it for the system and room, especially if the player supplies their own quality mic?
 
#50
For a newbie you have a pretty good idea of what you want to do. When it comes to finding your tone, wood DOES NOT matter. Don't fall for all those marketing ploys about how certain woods let you hear different things.
As far as tone goes

What matters
Amp
Cab
Strings
Bridge
Nut material
Playing style: fingers/pick
Pickups

Doesn't matter
Body wood
Neck/FB wood
Gold/silver cables
Chambering
 
#51
Countryman and Radial DI's are pretty much the defacto standard in the pro touring world. Sometimes we use the DI out (generally pre eq) on the amp, and/or a mic, but >50% is an external DI.

It seems that the lower level the gig or act, the more certain folks are about how things are done in the pro world but don't really know or understand. I don't carry 6 Countrymans got my health.
 
#52
The chain:
1. practice practice practice
2. heart
3. head
4. hands
5. pickups
6. effects/dynamics control/tone shaping
7. bridge
8. nut (open string notes)
9. speakers/DI
10. Amp
11. Cabinet

In most live playing situations, the sound guy is going to decide how you will be amplified for the venue (DI or mic'ed). Your amp is mostly for yourself and your drummer. Mostly yourself.
 
#55
fnordlyone said:
thanks for a pointed response! hear you loud and clear, but why do you prefer the tandem 8ohms? (besides resale value)
you tber's are awesome on kicking knowledge:smug:
Click to expand...

If I'm playing a gig where I'm not in the PA mix and its a medium size venue, or if I'm playing with a band that "enjoys" a loud stage volume, I need the extra cab to hear my bass sound and if necessary to project it to the audience. BUT... if its a rehearsal, or a smaller gig, or a gig with a lower stage volume and I have PA support, then I don't need to schlep the second cab. Having a 2 cab setup gives me flexibility in what I bring, as well as making it easier to lift in and out of the car and up and down stairs.
 
#56
Mic + DI = phasing problems
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul01/articles/micdi.asp

If you have a digital board you might have the tools to compensate.
An analog board won't unless external gear is used.

A good way to go is Getting the tone you want in your signal path, and then feeding this via DI to the FOH, or to a transparent amp. And the soundman may tweak to sound even better out front.

There's a lot of business about cab tone, and watts at the edge of the amp rating. This kind of stuff just doesn't scale up and down. DI + your own monitor if needed.
 
#57
I mix my own band from stage and help some friends with sound, etc. Bass rig gets a 57 just like the other instruments, unless somebody happens to have a highend mic with them ( a rare occurence ). Barring the mic, a post eq DI or line out from the amp. My mixes aren't too bass heavy just because I'm a bass player, but it does get an equal role as the rest of the instruments, you can always hear what is being played and never notice just a little less rumble if the bassist lays out for part of a song. I can't stand that, it's the reason I quit going to arena concerts.

Only time I take a dry DI off the bass is if the player has a woofy, muddy scooped tone and won't cooperate to adjust it. Even then some goofball with an active bass can still make a mess of it, in which case their fader starts coming down and continues coming down until their mud is gone. That kind of stuff is not the fault of the soundman. Mud in the house with a good signal coming in most certainly is though.
 
#58
Deep Cat said:
The chain:
1. practice practice practice
2. heart
3. head
4. hands
5. pickups
6. effects/dynamics control/tone shaping
7. bridge
8. nut (open string notes)
9. speakers/DI
10. Amp
11. Cabinet

In most live playing situations, the sound guy is going to decide how you will be amplified for the venue (DI or mic'ed). Your amp is mostly for yourself and your drummer. Mostly yourself.
Click to expand...
Man, nothing bugged me more than going into a gig with a vintage Ampeg tube amp and a killer mic I paid over $300 for and having the soundman tell me he refuses to use it without even trying it. It's the reason I switched to the REDDI. I despise the idea that the soundman makes these decisions unilaterally like my opinion doesn't count for anything.
 
#59
JimmyM said:
Man, nothing bugged me more than going into a gig with a vintage Ampeg tube amp and a killer mic I paid over $300 for and having the soundman tell me he refuses to use it without even trying it. It's the reason I switched to the REDDI. I despise the idea that the soundman makes these decisions unilaterally like my opinion doesn't count for anything.
Click to expand...

That, the cheap Whirlwind DI box they insist on using and tone that sounds like a car full of cheap subwoofers are what give soundguys such a bad rap.

A real pro wouldn't run like that and a bassist worth their salt wouldn't send them mud to work with and insist it's "their tone, man" either.
 
#60
There are people who feel that speakers are just there to reproduce sound and that amp EQ is there exclusively to adjust to the environment. If that's all there was to bass amplification this forum subsection would be very uninteresting.
 

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