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Amp "tone" unimportant when using di?

#61
I get my FOH from pedalboard. I used to use sm57 but they tried to turn upright into boom and clank and would always try to get me to DI.

One time I was lied to about my sansamp being silent. I had left my amp in my car as we had "full monitoring", yeah right, the native tone of my EUB isn't pretty, what I got from monitors was blech, godknowswhat was coming from FOH. Never again. Do we all learn that one the hard way?
 
#63
Downunderwonder said:
I get my FOH from pedalboard. I used to use sm57 but they tried to turn upright into boom and clank and would always try to get me to DI.

One time I was lied to about my sansamp being silent. I had left my amp in my car as we had "full monitoring", yeah right, the native tone of my EUB isn't pretty, what I got from monitors was blech, godknowswhat was coming from FOH. Never again. Do we all learn that one the hard way?
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Those little wedges that make vocals nice and clear sound like utter crap with an electric bass, let alone an EUB or a "real bass" and everyone knows it, hence the amp/stacks. Sometimes I wonder if some of these "DI + monitor or IEM" people have ever had the pleasure of a real bass rig kicking them in the backside. It's as if they've never tasted a Ribeye cooked over an open flame, so to them, a bit dry, leathery shoulder meat with a bit of seasoning tossed on is, in their mind, as good as it gets.

It's all relative.
 
#64
OK, I didn't read the thread, so sue me. Actually, I mainly wanted to chime in because, based on your screen name, Fnordlyone, it seems we may both read too much Robert Anton Wilson (or dare I suggest, the Principia Discordia?)

My experience:
1. Many gigs will not have FOH support. A good amp is necessary in these situations.

2. Even if you do have FOH support, unless you're playing an arena, the audience is hearing a mix of your amp and FOH.

3. Even if you're playing an arena, you will still be mainly hearing yourself through your amp. It's more inspiring (for me, anyway) to hear yourself with a good tone than a poor one.

Sorry if all this stuff's been said before, and remember, if you don't see the fnords, they can't eat you! :D
 
#65
Bassist4Eris said:
2. Even if you do have FOH support, unless you're playing an arena, the audience is hearing a mix of your amp and FOH.
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Excellent point! I play with some of the lowest volume of anyone on here, and people in the audience can still hear my amps plain as day in the mix. Sounds good, too! The idea that you can't is a myth unless your amp is offstage in an iso booth. But if you play through your amp and you can hear it, people are hearing your amp in the PA, too.
 
#67
fnordlyone said:
Fnord, the newb, trying to learn. I'm researching for my first rig and play rock 5 string. There's a lot to absorb, but I think I'm starting to wrap my head around this techno mumbo jumbo. Tell me how wrong I am and why!
A good DI (REDDI, Sansamp, etc) is the preferred mode of shaping tone/sound. Before that it's the fingers, strings and wood, then the pickups. There appears to be no reason to buy amp heads that have built in pre amps, di's, eq's, or really any such knobs, since that's Sansamp's job. Hence, it is foolish to spend tons of money on an amp with such features. What one really needs is a reliable Watt generator to push the cabs (merely an electrical transference box), nothing fancy.
Please advise, vets.
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My advice. Buy an amp. If you like the sound of our SansAmp's you can buy one of our amps or build a rig around it. Either way you as a bass player should have an amp. You can't depend on PA monitors for your sound unless you own the PA and know what monitors will always be available. Not every sound man is amenable to pumping lots of bass guitar through their monitors and for good reason. Not all vocal wedges can handle bass. If you play with a loud drummer and guitarist and don't have enough power you will get buried. You won't be happy.
 
#68
prd004 said:
My favorite method is a mic and a straight DI off the bass blended. Of course I only use high quality mics and DI's.

A mic and a straight DI blend will yield awesome results and make just about everybody happy
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+1

I like the combination of using the DI out of the back of my amp head (pre-eq) plus a Heil PR40 mic'ing the cab to get the toobalicious tube tone from my all-tube rig. This gives me the highest reading on the happy meter.
 
#69
Hi Everyone,

Okay after reading all of the above, I thought I needed to add my 2c worth here as a bass player and also a sound engineer. I even signed up to this forum for this!

Firstly there are four ways to get get the sound of you bass to the audience:

1. Direct Cab Sound
2. DI via a DI Box
3. DI via Amp Head
4. Mic

#1, is fine for small gigs, however if the sound engineer has SFA of you in the mix, you're too loud...turn down and punch the drummer in the face for being too noisy and set fire the the guitarist's Marshall. Keeping it down on stage makes it sound heaps better out front.

#2 is okay if your amp does not have a DI. However you loose any amp characteristics by doing this and it makes a big difference to slap/funk players etc.

Now #3 DI'ing directly from your head...Now the problem I have many a times is the bassist has EQ'd his head for his/her cabinet and for that particular stage. It means that many a time I get a mushy boomy signal that has been EQ'd for the cabinet and stage, not for the desk. The best option here is to get a head that offers DI with that can send a signal pre EQ signal, (there are many available). The engineer can then sort out your EQ and where it sits with the rest of the band whilst you retain the head characteristics. (best option BTW...)

#4 is good to do in addition to a DI method above and sometimes I have pulled up amazing sounds with a mic only and sometimes with a combination of both...(but it is getting a bit anal doing both for a live show...).

Be nice to roadies! If they like you, they'll go out of their way to make you sound good.

Cheers...:bassist:
 
#70
levis76 said:
http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm57-instrument-microphone

Your logic is flawed.

SM-57 freq range is 40Hz - 15KHz. What frequencies do you think your bass and amp produce that this mic will not pick up? Most amps don't go much lower than 40Hz, which human beings can not hear anyways, you feel it. A good bassist doesn't really need much below 200Hz or he's gonna be drowning out the bass drum. The SM-57 is an excellent all around mic. There are other mics that are "better" for micing different instruments, but the SM-57 will get you anywhere you need to be and it's cost effective.
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yes i know what you are saying but specs don't always tell the full story. you can use it shure. lol

i'm not saying it won't work at all. in my experience though when you mic a bass amp the sound is muddier or thinner sounding (depending on the mic) than going straight out of the head. thus making for a sound that is not as good to my ears.

bass sounds are best from 40hz-100hz. 200hz-500hz you are getting into low mids which is the horrible range of bass sounds. it's that rumbly tone that sounds terrible.

the bass drum needs to sound tight as well and not rumbly. you can add some high mids or highs to it to make it cut through the mix better. not too much or it will start to sound "clicky" though. lol

we never had any issues hearing both the bass drum and bass guitar clearly in 10 years of touring doing it this way. we had our own PA and soundman for 75% of the gigs. the really big gigs sound was provided for us by the pros.
 
#72
kilgoja said:
it's total BS dude. your bass will never sound as good going straight through a DI box as it will coming out of the DI on the back of your amp head. you get the eq and everything that your amp is putting out.

it really gets on my nerves when sound people do that or try to do that. they would never even think of doing that with guitar amps. if they did it would sound horrible. the difference is night and day. some just look at the bass guitar like it's not important. your just there adding some rumbly sound to the mix. if you use your amp the sound is night and day difference. especially if you are using a tube amp like an ampeg svt classic. there's no reason they can't use your amp DI out. if they refuse they are just stupid and dont' know a thing about sound. the mix will sound 100% better using your amp tone rather than just a DI box. any sound person should know that if they have a clue about sound.

also putting mic in front of a bass cab never really sounds as good as using the DI out on your amp head. it may if they have an expensive mic made just for bass sounds. i've tried it all man. recording or whatever. your bass and your bass amp are the most important part of your sound and a huge part of the band's overall sound.

i was in a band for 10 years and i never even used a monitor. i could hear the drums so i stuck with him. i could hear the guitars from their amps. i could hear myself from my amp. i could hear the singing from their monitors. it's pretty easy to do. i never had any trouble hearing anything or keeping up with what was going on. monitors really only are needed if you are playing huge gigs where the band is really spread out like outdoor festivals and such. most gigs you are pretty close to each other and can hear everything fine.

if you play tiny gigs then the bass and guitar players can just use their amps only for sound and the drummer doesn't even need to have mics on it. just put the vocals and keyboard through the PA.

if you are playing a small gig or a gig with alot of reverb like a gym then you still use your amp but you just turn it down a bit or turn down your bass knob on your amp a bit to help the sound guy out.
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I couldn't agree more, why some guys spend so much time and money crafting their sound with their amp. Then send a dry signal to " a sound guy" and expect him to get your sound.. I will never understand.... If thats the case why even have a amp
 
#73
just look at what the pros do. take a red hot chili peppers stage setup for example.

they have the guitar amps with mics on them. look at flea's bass cab. no mics to be seen. you think he is going through a di box? no way. they are just using the di out from the amp head. that's the best way to do it. that way your amp tone is the tone they hear out in the crowd.
 
#76
kilgoja said:
yes it's correct sir. maybe you play a different type of music than rock music? rock music you want deep, tight low end to drive the music then scoop out the low mids and boost the high mids to cut through the mix and give definition to what you are playing. then roll off the highs.
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Scooped mids is one of the worst bass tones out there - sounds good in the bedroom, but like crap in the mix.

Also, how well do you like your 8X10, since it puts out so very little of your coveted 40-100hz :confused:
 
#79
tech21nyc said:
My advice. Buy an amp. If you like the sound of our SansAmp's you can buy one of our amps or build a rig around it. Either way you as a bass player should have an amp. You can't depend on PA monitors for your sound unless you own the PA and know what monitors will always be available. Not every sound man is amenable to pumping lots of bass guitar through their monitors and for good reason. Not all vocal wedges can handle bass. If you play with a loud drummer and guitarist and don't have enough power you will get buried. You won't be happy.
Click to expand...

I certainly plan on having an amp, but as I said, perhaps geared more towards simple reliability and power rather than its tone shaping qualities.
 
#80
Bass_Pounder said:
Scooped mids is one of the worst bass tones out there - sounds good in the bedroom, but like crap in the mix.

Also, how well do you like your 8X10, since it puts out so very little of your coveted 40-100hz :confused:
Click to expand...

the 8x10 goes down to 40hz. most of what you hear is around 100hz-250hz. i'm not sure exactly where the low mids start to come in as far as the frequency range. maybe it's closer to 500hz. i dunno. i don't use a graphic eq. i just use tone knobs on my amp. i set the bass knob about 3/4 of the way up, push in the ultra low button, set the mid selector to position 4 and turn up the mids a notch or two past straight up. this boosts high mids. not sure exactly what frequency it is. and i leave the treble knob straight up. i set the tone on my jazz bass a hair above halfway. this is the best sound i've found. i used to play without the ultra low button pushed in and i just turned the bass knob up a little more. it just sounds better with the button pushed in to me.

the ultra low button on the amp head boosts the lows and selectively cuts low mids to make for a great sound. sounds perfect in the mix or in the bedroom. standing in front of the amp on stage playing. what you hear there is exactly what you hear coming out of the PA speakers if you go out there and listen while playing.

why do you think so many amps have that contour knob or button to scoop the mids out? because it sound good when you do it. perhaps you are just playing the wrong bass. a jazz bass or stingray naturally have alot of growly mids in their sound to start with. those are the basses i play.

setting it up like i do sounds awesome to me. when playing normally you leave the eq flat on the soundboard. if playing in a gym or place with alot of reverb you turn the bass down a notch on the soundboard to compensate. if playing outdoors you can turn the bass on the soundboard up a notch. i always set my amp the same way for every single gig for 10 years and never had any issues. sure on a smaller place you turn the volume down a bit and maybe up a bit for a larger outdoor event. the eq settings were always the same on the amp. minor adjustments were made with the soundboard eq depending on the place you were playing.
 

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