Ampeg B-15 and DI Boxes and "Ext Amp" and etc.

[figuredbass]

The Countryman Type 85 should work flawlessly (without any impedance mismatch issues) for either the "Ext Amp" out or the "Ext Speaker" out, provided that you set the amp/speaker switch on it properly.

 

[bigbottomend]

I am tempted to go for the Countryman now as figuredbass says it has dual use and can run on phantom power. Maximum amp input wattage on the Radial JDX is 300w (I will also use with my SVT and im sure they can kick out more than 300w?), the Countryman can take much more wattage. What is JDX does have though is a speaker emulator, has anyone tried them both ?

 

[beans-on-toast]

How different is that Radial than my Whirlwind Director? How much difference is there in DI boxes that are over $50.00 and under $200.00 for this application?

I bought an inexpensive Boss DI in the 80's. In general, you get what you pay for.

In order to sell it for less, there are design compromises. They used less expensive components and the quality of the build is lower. It is noisier and colors the sound.

 

[JimmyM]

While I hate the Whirlwind Imp 2, the Director isn't half bad for the money. Never did a direct comparo but the amp kind of takes over the DI anyway, no?

 

[JvN]

I have heard good reports of both the Radial DI and the Countryman. You might want to contact JvN and compare notes. He looked into this did a lot of tests combining a mic and a Radial DI with his B15. This way he gets a blend of power amp/cab tone as well as pre-amp from the EXT AMP.

Thanks David, I'll put in a few cents but I'm by no means a tech expert. I just try to listen to what I hear, in my head as well as from my gear, and hope the gap will gradually close until I die . But yes, I too was puzzled by the problem of getting a great sound conveyed by vintage Ampegs to FOH, for we're not just investing all that time and money into a freakin' stage monitor. For me, mic is #1 (Heil PR40, thanks to Jimmy's suggestion). Then, for the sake of sound people, a 'direct' balanced signal to go with it.

First, I tried speaker sim between amp and cab (Palmer, Countryman, Radial) and settled for the Palmer, but wasn't quite convinced about the concept. A guitar player's 4 x 12 or what have you is not and will never be a 810 flatback. And you have the mic for authentic speaker sound. More of the same doesn't help the sound people either.

Then, I heard about all those fancy tube DI's. I am, actually, working on a test for a Dutch magazine with some great bass players and their tube DI's in studio and live situations: REDDI, UA Solo 610, and Monique - just to learn more about them. But so far I can't say much from personal experience other than they are quite expensive. Lotsa threads dealing with them on TB though.

And then I discovered the mighty Pre Amp Out on any Ampeg head, from the oldest B-15 to the newest V-4B. I figured this is exactly the same as an expensive tube pre-amp/DI, it's vintage, uses multiple tubes, and is built into the amp that you're going to use anyway! So these days, all I do is put a decent DI between my '71 V-4B's or SVT's pre amp out jack and FOH, and drive my cabs the regular way. The sound is perfect, with no deep lows lost, and sound people are happy. I was worried about the impedance problem, too, and - with help of David - I settled on the Radial JDI, which could handle Ampegs pre amp output with Ohms to spare. I did it on my '67 B-15NF and it worked like a charm, but the amp is gone because I did not use it enough, not being a professional session cat. The V-4B's and SVT's pre amp sounds are pretty much the same (NOT the power amp's!) and those I am using all the time these days.

So with the Heil, the JDI and my regular stack, I've been the happiest camper around for the last couple of years. Simple and AMPEG! The only thing I fear is that tube DI test coming... We're going to compare those 3 (and maybe more, like the Gas Cooker or TAB Funkenwerk) with the pre amp out option with the Radial and if I end up admitting a dedicated pre amp/DI sounds better, I'll report here.

 

[beans-on-toast]

While I hate the Whirlwind Imp 2, the Director isn't half bad for the money. Never did a direct comparo but the amp kind of takes over the DI anyway, no?

You would think so but it doesn't always work that way. Otherwise all DI's would sell for $50.

An inexpensive unit can add hiss and noise and amplify in a way that the output doesn't look like the input at all frequencies.

Many manufacturers have a DI out on their amps. This often doesn't amount to more than a couple of TL072 operational amplifiers. I'd love to see, and would gladly pay for, a DI with a quality Jensen transformer and a tube driving it. How about one that can be selected to tap the power amp output rather than just the pre-amp. Unfortunately, it comes down to cost.

 

[beans-on-toast]

So with the Heil, the JDI and my regular stack, I've been the happiest camper around for the last couple of years. Simple and AMPEG! The only thing I fear is that tube DI test coming... We're going to compare those 3 (and maybe more, like the Gas Cooker or TAB Funkenwerk) with the pre amp out option with the Radial and if I end up admitting a dedicated pre amp/DI sounds better, I'll report here.

Thanks for your post and comments Joris. I look forward to seeing the results of you DI shootout. It's going to be very interesting.

 

[JvN]

I'd love to see, and would gladly pay for, a DI with a quality Jensen transformer and a tube driving it. How about one that can be selected to tap the power amp output rather than just the pre-amp.

Yes - that would be great. As we all know, the power section of the V-4B is what makes its clock tick. How hard is it to manufacture such a device? But before we have it, I think the pre amp out combined with a balancing DI is the closest thing sound wise. That jack is not a DI out (although SS Ampegs like the PF500 etc. do have a DI out next to the pre amp out...

 

[bluehevy75]

Thanks David, I'll put in a few cents but I'm by no means a tech expert. I just try to listen to what I hear, in my head as well as from my gear, and hope the gap will gradually close until I die . But yes, I too was puzzled by the problem of getting a great sound conveyed by vintage Ampegs to FOH, for we're not just investing all that time and money into a freakin' stage monitor. For me, mic is #1 (Heil PR40, thanks to Jimmy's suggestion). Then, for the sake of sound people, a 'direct' balanced signal to go with it.

First, I tried speaker sim between amp and cab (Palmer, Countryman, Radial) and settled for the Palmer, but wasn't quite convinced about the concept. A guitar player's 4 x 12 or what have you is not and will never be a 810 flatback. And you have the mic for authentic speaker sound. More of the same doesn't help the sound people either.

Then, I heard about all those fancy tube DI's. I am, actually, working on a test for a Dutch magazine with some great bass players and their tube DI's in studio and live situations: REDDI, UA Solo 610, and Monique - just to learn more about them. But so far I can't say much from personal experience other than they are quite expensive. Lotsa threads dealing with them on TB though.

And then I discovered the mighty Pre Amp Out on any Ampeg head, from the oldest B-15 to the newest V-4B. I figured this is exactly the same as an expensive tube pre-amp/DI, it's vintage, uses multiple tubes, and is built into the amp that you're going to use anyway! So these days, all I do is put a decent DI between my '71 V-4B's or SVT's pre amp out jack and FOH, and drive my cabs the regular way. The sound is perfect, with no deep lows lost, and sound people are happy. I was worried about the impedance problem, too, and - with help of David - I settled on the Radial JDI, which could handle Ampegs pre amp output with Ohms to spare. I did it on my '67 B-15NF and it worked like a charm, but the amp is gone because I did not use it enough, not being a professional session cat. The V-4B's and SVT's pre amp sounds are pretty much the same (NOT the power amp's!) and those I am using all the time these days.

So with the Heil, the JDI and my regular stack, I've been the happiest camper around for the last couple of years. Simple and AMPEG! The only thing I fear is that tube DI test coming... We're going to compare those 3 (and maybe more, like the Gas Cooker or TAB Funkenwerk) with the pre amp out option with the Radial and if I end up admitting a dedicated pre amp/DI sounds better, I'll report here.

Well shoot. Thanks so much. Guess I'm off to get a JDI! Excited to hear how the other tests go.

 

[JimmyM]

JDI or JDV is what I'd use for Radial, although I wasn't unhappy with the Countryman at all for this purpose. I'm partial to active DI's when forced to use one

 

[DaveDeVille]

sub'd. , for some great advice ...

 

[Jack]

Yes - that would be great. As we all know, the power section of the V-4B is what makes its clock tick. How hard is it to manufacture such a device? But before we have it, I think the pre amp out combined with a balancing DI is the closest thing sound wise. That jack is not a DI out (although SS Ampegs like the PF500 etc. do have a DI out next to the pre amp out...

As has been discussed, a speaker level di is all you need. It'd be great to see one inside an amp but until then I'm a happy countryman user.

 

[bluehevy75]

So the info with the JDI said push the -15db pad and the speaker pad when taking a line from the speaker.

Do I need to have any similar pads engaged for using "Ext Amp" jack or is it just plug and play?

Also does the JDI need to be between the head and speaker cab or can I plug my speaker into the head, as usua,l and just run the additional "Ext Speaker" jack into the JDI and then send that to FOH?

Thanks,
K

 

[JvN]

If you wanna go speaker sim, you use a free/extra speaker out and then and through to FOH (and, if possible) speaker. You can do all that with 1 Countryman 85; I am not sure about the JDI.

If you go pre amp out (which I prefer, because there is no speaker sim designed specifically for bass on the market), connect that to the JDI and then XLR through to FOH. Speakers can simultaneously be connected as usual.

 

[blr2]

For some time, I've been using Palmer "The Junction" box to go from speaker out to FOH. It is a DI-box with speaker simulator. Palmer are known for their good speaker sims. It is marketed for guitar, but works very well on bass too. Paired with a tube amp, I get this warm thumpy, but well defined in the mix sound that everyone seem to like. Overdriven bass is also great, since the simulator cuts the high treble that gets real buzzy through FOH speakers. I paid approx 100 USD for it in Europe. It may be a bit more in the US, because it is made in Germany.
PS: You will need two parallel speaker outputs, since Palmer warns against using the parallel out of the box at speaker level.

 

[JvN]

It is marketed for guitar, but works very well on bass too. Paired with a tube amp, I get this warm thumpy, but well defined in the mix sound that everyone seem to like.

That's exactly why I, too, went for the Palmer PDI-09 instead of the Countryman. But I like the pre-amp to JDI-sound even better. Matters of taste...

 

[blr2]

The Palmer will work nicely out of the preamp. The reason I take my signal from the speaker out is to catch some of the power tubes character and breakup at higher volumes. I use small amps, my biggest one is 50 Watts, so I can push it pretty hard on stage without messing to much with the monitor mix. I've found that if I take my signal from the send (line level out of the preamp), it's a bit thinner and not so rich.

 

[JvN]

I never tried that with the JDI; maybe it's better than the Countryman for speaker sim. You got me wanting to try it ;-). So far with the mic on a second channel, which is VERY fat and VERY deep, I did not need it. But sometimes micing is impossible and then it's nice to have the best possible DI solution. I'm not sure if the JDI in speaker sim mode will eat a V-4B or even SVT power tube / speaker out level in a live situation.

 

[gregmon79]

Im wondering what can be done if I want to run my Ampeg B50R to the FOH. I think I may have asked this question before in another thread but I have forgot. Just a DI box like that Whirlwind??

 

[blr2]

I've found that micing bass on small stages is not the best solution. Even if the sound guy doesn't mind, you get a lot of sound leakage from other instruments on stage. Even when playing with drum machines (no loud drummer on stage) it may be a problem. Another problem is miking cabs with tweeters. I have two EBS Classic line 112 (nice cabs BTW), but with one mic the sound gets too dependent on the positioning between the woofer and the tweeter. Two mics often create phasing problems and even more sound leakage... It could be used in the studio for two channel tracking, but live- it creates more problems than it solves.