Ampeg Micro VR issues poll with new video

[fenderhutz]

Not everything can be all things to everyone....

TRichardsbass, you are missing a very important issue here. Ampeg, in this very thread, admitted there is a problem and they fixed it (at least in the head I sent them they are sending back to me).

There are no what if's here.

Please don't take this thread into an argument session over a known, admitted, and fixed flaw.

 

[TRichardsbass]

TRichardsbass, you are missing a very important issue here. Ampeg, in this very thread, admitted there is a problem and they fixed it (at least in the head I sent them they are sending back to me).

There are no what if's here.

Please don't take this thread into an argument session over a known, admitted, and fixed flaw.

Not doing that. Just giving my significant experience in the electronics world. Ampeg heard your problem and looked into it. It may be a "design flaw" but it is not one that they may have ever run into nor have "known" as you put it and one that they may never had heard about because no one else in the world tried to use the set up and settings you have.

Your tone with them in this thread seems to me to be abrupt and accusatory as if they did it on purpose. I'm just explaining what could have happened. That is why there are many amplifier companies. You can find an amp that is optimum for you. You yourself in this thread said you would trade for a different model. You have a particular setting that you use, and you need it to be good for you. The Micro VR couldn't do it.

When you design something you can't test every single scenario. You design the test to cover the extremes and worst cases. In many cases people use what is called an "orthogonal array" to determine the set of characteristic to design a test to that covers the largest amount of area with the minimum test.

Many companies don't even test a prototype anymore. You can use software to virtually test a design and 99% of the time you are fine.

So in this case I'm just saying that there will be items that the company does not experience in its tests, nor will it experience it in the virtual test. That doesn't mean they shouldn't make a change or fix it, but there are things that are particular to one person that is a problem but not necessarily a design flaw. If the item did not operate in most ways or in its primary mode I would call it a design flaw.

Again, you design products for an optimum performance in a range of situations but typical situations. If you buy an SUV you should not complain if it doesn't go 0-60 in a second flat nor if it only gets 1 mile to the gallon.

I was a juror in a court hearing once where the defense argued that the size of the SUV and the high center of gravity of the huge SUV was a design flaw because the 4'9" client (yes, that's how tall she was) could not adequately reach all the controls of her Ford SUV and also because the high center of gravity led to flipping the SUV at high speeds when making sharp turns.

A SUV is not designed to be driven 100 miles an hour on the highway nor is it meant to make high speed sharp turns. It is designed to be driven at slower speeds in an off road, cross country, heavy terrain. It can be driven on a highway, it can go fast, and it does in fact turn sharp, and it is clearly in the manual you can do it, but that is not what it is designed for. Will there be situations the designers never encounter or envision when designing the SUV? Yes. Are they necessarily design flaws? No.

My personal experience came with a Line6 amp a couple of years ago. It was in a backline that the venue provided and you could not use your own equipment. When I played low on the E string the cabinet would literally fart. And not in a good way. So I went to the store in the town where I was and checked out the same model in the store and it did the same. I played through a Mesa set similarly and it didn't fart. A design flaw? Maybe not. On other settings the Line6 worked fine, but I could never get the sound I wanted when I set it differently then at fart settings.

Again, I gave props to Ampeg here. Their product will be better for the fix.

 

[Chef]

This bolded part simply is not true.

I noted the problem in the Bass Gear Review some time ago, and anyone who has tried to push this rig to substantive volumes with two cabs would have had the same result. Several other users in this thread already noted they had as well.

If I were a beta tester for Ampeg, I would have found this in the first 15 minutes or so, and their test team should have as well.

IMO.

I don't feel your SUV analogy applies very well here, and I also think user FenderHutz has been pretty polite about this.
YMMV of course.

Not doing that. Just giving my significant experience in the electronics world. Ampeg heard your problem and looked into it. It may be a "design flaw" but it is not one that they may have ever run into nor have "known" as you put it and one that they may never had heard about because no one else in the world tried to use the set up and settings you have.

 

[GaryLC]

It may be a "design flaw" but it is not one that they may have ever run into nor have "known" as you put it and one that they may never had heard about because no one else in the world tried to use the set up and settings you have.

Please don't go there....I've loved reading your posts, and have learned a lot from them, but a bunch of us have used the set up & settings that Hutz has. I initially bought the amp with one cab, then added the second one. When I heard that sound, I just wimped out, and figured I wouldn't drive it that hard. But it was at settings that were okay with one cabinet! I was just too much of a wuss, or too lazy to complain about it.

 

[TRichardsbass]

This bolded part simply is not true.

I noted the problem in the Bass Gear Review some time ago, and anyone who has tried to push this rig to substantive volumes with two cabs would have had the same result. Several other users in this thread already noted they had as well.

If I were a beta tester for Ampeg, I would have found this in the first 15 minutes or so, and their test team should have as well.

IMO.

I don't feel your SUV analogy applies very well here, and I also think user FenderHutz has been pretty polite about this.
YMMV of course.

Not doing that. Just giving my significant experience in the electronics world. Ampeg heard your problem and looked into it. It may be a "design flaw" but it is not one that they may have ever run into nor have "known" as you put it and one that they may never had heard about because no one else in the world tried to use the set up and settings you have.

I am not offended, but I believe the SUV experience is accurate from the design standpoint. In 99% of the situations an SUV is just fine on the road. But when you put it into certain situations its just not optimum.

One of the things I couldn't tell from Fendery is if he was using the built in parallel outs or if he was going cabinet to cabinet. That could of course effect it.

The other thing is that most of the videos and demos I've seen are in the single cabinet mode, and they are nearly perfect. The Ampeg video itself has him running it in a recording type scenario and he talks about it being a good practice amp as well. So if the cab craps when hooked up with two and goes to four ohms, that is a definite possibility with a switched power supply. Lots of issues with this type of supply where you can actually get some dynamic harmonic effects and some frequency power cross. That is what is happening.

By the way, several of the BA-115s I have seen have a cabinet issue with some frequencies at low volume and high volume but not in-between.

So I'm out now, not trying to offend anyone.

 

[fenderhutz]

One of the things I couldn't tell from Fendery is if he was using the built in parallel outs or if he was going cabinet to cabinet. That could of course effect it.

The other thing is that most of the videos and demos I've seen are in the single cabinet mode, and they are nearly perfect. So if the cab craps when hooked up with two and goes to four ohms, that is a definite possibility with a switched power supply. Lots of issues with this type of supply where you can actually get some dynamic harmonic effects and some frequency power cross. That is what is happening.

I can tell you this "fix" did not involve the power supply at all. Hooking up the cabs directly to the head or cabinet to cabinet didn't matter.

Again. Ampeg has isolated the problem. Fixed it in the head I sent back, and having me test it to make sure I get the same results they did. It was a design flaw, but only affected certain playing styles and higher volumes. No one is placing blame.

I will report back after I get to try it out next week.

 

[JimmyM]

Well I just talked to Ampeg. Head should ship out today. Bad news is I live all the way across the country so I won't get to test it until the middle of next week.

I was explained what the issue was, and that they could not reproduce the sounds it made before the fix. So here is to waiting.

There is much more to this but I am going to wait to see if the fix worked before I post any more info.

Good idea, Hutz.

BTW, Tom, I don't think any of us fell off the turnip truck yesterday, and none of are saying it's a bad product. Just needs a tweak. If you can turn the gain way up without clipping hard with only one cab, you should be able to do it with two, that's all. But with two cabs, that gain light even flashes on and it clips hard. Maybe it doesn't happen to everyone, but it happens. But I still used the heck out of it on Sunday and Monday with one cab, and it was teh r0x0rZ, so I still believe in the product.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Please don't go there....I've loved reading your posts, and have learned a lot from them, but a bunch of us have used the set up & settings that Hutz has. I initially bought the amp with one cab, then added the second one. When I heard that sound, I just wimped out, and figured I wouldn't drive it that hard. But it was at settings that were okay with one cabinet! I was just too much of a wuss, or too lazy to complain about it.

I think your experiences just prove my point. The design was optimized around one cab. They did all their prototype testing on one cab, as that was the way they figured 99% of the world would use it.

Sometimes that's just how it works. Ampeg was trying to develop a product that would appeal to SVT guys, had SVT looks but worked in small settings or was their version of the new uber powerful micro amps. The MicroVR is amazing with one cab, it really is.

That's all I was saying.

 

[JimmyM]

I think your experiences just prove my point. The design was optimized around one cab. They did all their prototype testing on one cab, as that was the way they figured 99% of the world would use it.

Sometimes that's just how it works. Ampeg was trying to develop a product that would appeal to SVT guys, had SVT looks but worked in small settings or was their version of the new uber powerful micro amps. The MicroVR is amazing with one cab, it really is.

That's all I was saying.

That's all ANY of us have been saying! It's damn amazing! But I still want it to work with two cabs just as well with one. Why? Because I have two cabs and it allows for it.

 

[fenderhutz]

That's all ANY of us have been saying! It's damn amazing! But I still want it to work with two cabs just as well with one. Why? Because I have two cabs and it allows for it.

Also looks better in the uber tall "PEZ-TONE" setup lol.

 

[Chef]

Pez-tone...nice
Where was that when I wrote the review!

 

[funkometer]

There was one of these heads and the 210 cab at the store I teach at. Utter crap. Sounded like a cigarette amp through a 210......

 

[fenderhutz]

There was one of these heads and the 210 cab at the store I teach at. Utter crap. Sounded like a cigarette amp through a 210......

Then you were using it wrong. Are you a knob nooner?

 

[JimmyM]

There was one of these heads and the 210 cab at the store I teach at. Utter crap. Sounded like a cigarette amp through a 210......

Funny...in my hands it sounds like a small and not-quite-so-tubey version of the SVT/810e. Funny how that works, isn't it? People liking different stuff...whoda thunk?

 

[TRichardsbass]

Good idea, Hutz.

BTW, Tom, I don't think any of us fell off the turnip truck yesterday, and none of are saying it's a bad product. Just needs a tweak. If you can turn the gain way up without clipping hard with only one cab, you should be able to do it with two, that's all. But with two cabs, that gain light even flashes on and it clips hard. Maybe it doesn't happen to everyone, but it happens. But I still used the heck out of it on Sunday and Monday with one cab, and it was teh r0x0rZ, so I still believe in the product.

Yo Jimmy! I know you didn't fall of the turnip truck, at least not yesterday...LOL!

The interesting thing is that Ampeg makes special note that this is a switched power supply, not a linear.

In theory, with a linear supply, you should experience exactly what you said, if you don't clip with one you shouldn't clip with two. But when it goes from 8 to four ohms and the power goes up, the switched power supply may be experiencing something that a linear doesn't. I've seen SMPS couple electrical switching noise back onto the main, and have had interference with stuff connected to the same phase. Switched supplies can also cause "harmonic distortion". You need filtering and really have to be careful with PCB tracings to make sure you don't have inductance and
capacitance issues adding to the problem.

Designing with switched supplies is more complex then with linear, and they way they work is not as intuitive as with standard linear supplies.

That's all I'm saying.

I would like to hear what the fix was if it works to Fendery's needs.

 

[fenderhutz]

I would like to hear what the fix was if it works to Fendery's needs.

You will. Probably with an attached video.

 

[JimmyM]

Yo Jimmy! I know you didn't fall of the turnip truck, at least not yesterday...LOL!

The interesting thing is that Ampeg makes special note that this is a switched power supply, not a linear.

In theory, with a linear supply, you should experience exactly what you said, if you don't clip with one you shouldn't clip with two. But when it goes from 8 to four ohms and the power goes up, the switched power supply may be experiencing something that a linear doesn't. I've seen SMPS couple electrical switching noise back onto the main, and have had interference with stuff connected to the same phase. Switched supplies can also cause "harmonic distortion". You need filtering and really have to be careful with PCB tracings to make sure you don't have inductance and
capacitance issues adding to the problem.

Well I don't know what causes it, but I think Bill FM has the most plausible explanation...high Q speakers combining to cause an impedance spike that is dumping too much wattage to low freqs. It does it in no other combination of speakers at all. I can use one 210av and one b-15 cab and it won't do it. Two B-15 cabs or my 810? No problem whatsoever. And I can use the 210av's with any other head no problem, including the SVT. My guess is they probably needed to add a HPF to keep the spike from reaching the lows that the cab isn't built to reproduce. Fine by me...I'm not playing doom on my F#-1 tuned 5 string

 

[Bassflute]

It was my experience while I had the head and two cabs that the head could be pushed into clip, yes.
It's solid state, and doesn't clip prettily.
However, with the two cabs, it was plenty loud for most anything I did with it.

I do believe it's the head, cause I tried the two cabs with both MB F1 and Walkabout, and didn't get that same clippy result.

My take:
it's solid state, of course it's gonna clip ugly.

I don't know quite how you could take this amp 'seriously', it's more of a joke/toy/nostalgic novelty amp, but it does sound pretty good. When you plug a 4 ohm load, the amp is pushed into clipping far sooner than under an 8 ohm load; yes it's technically 'louder', yes it's putting out more power, but, as Chef so wisely said, it's solid state clipping, so it's ugly. And it's compressing like crazy because you've reached the END of it's useable power.

It's a little, toy, 'joke' of an amp, a 'baby' svt, used for quiet practice. I was quite impressed they sounded as good as they do - I actually expected it to sound like crap, which it doesn't up to a point. I used one for a practice amp at the Canadian Rockies Bass Bash, just me and a drummer. It was BARELY loud enough. You could do quiet gigs, but I was hitting the limit all the time. With two cabs, it will heat up and hit the limit really early, much earlier on the volume dial than at 8 ohms. It will be louder, but with WAY less headroom. I actually don't like amps running at 4 ohms because of the lack of headroom you get, even big separate power amps (like my old Bryston 4B - it sounded better at >>8<< (edited) ohms, as well, and it had GOBS of power), and the amount of distortion and compression that's going on. 8 ohms is a clean, balanced load...4 ohms and you're getting into reactive territory, and things get ugly - fast!

Want cleaner sound at high volumes, smoother distortion? Get a 'real' SVT, not a toy one.



Sheesh, want do you expect from something that looks like THAT? It's a novelty item, and barely 100 watts, get a grip. And I don't often make excuses for amp companies/corporations, but in this case I'm on their side. It'll WORK at 4 ohms, but nobody said it has to sound nice at 4 ohms.

Cheers,
Cameron

 

[Chef]

I completely disagree with your post Cameron.
I used the rig in a single cab config for smaller jobs, and a two cab config for bigger jobs, and did not find it to be a joke, a toy, or in any other way insufficient for my needs; aside from the current "clips early" issue.

If you don't like the tone, fine. If you need a much, much louder rig, fine.
But to call this rig an out and out joke is quite an overstatement, IMO.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Well I don't know what causes it, but I think Bill FM has the most plausible explanation...high Q speakers combining to cause an impedance spike that is dumping too much wattage to low freqs. It does it in no other combination of speakers at all. I can use one 210av and one b-15 cab and it won't do it. Two B-15 cabs or my 810? No problem whatsoever. And I can use the 210av's with any other head no problem, including the SVT. My guess is they probably needed to add a HPF to keep the spike from reaching the lows that the cab isn't built to reproduce. Fine by me...I'm not playing doom on my F#-1 tuned 5 string

My guess was the fix is an added filter as well. Or, they might have made a mod to one of the wire/trace paths.

Lets see...