Ampeg SVT really 960 watts?

[Wasnex]

I apologize I'm not trying to attack. I am trying to say what I believe. Over the years I had become frustrated with 400 bells and whistles and difficulty getting to the one good tone.

The best amp they ever made was the Mark I IMO YMMV.

Man I wish I had a hard on.

So we have to love every product and we dont it's considered hate speach. Where have I heard that before?

To be fair, you do seem to focus a lot on the negative and stirring up .

I don't necessarily think it was the feature set of the 400 and 400+ that made them difficult to dial them in, rather it was the implementation of those features. In particular I don't think the Mesa graphic EQs are all that musical and the controls are somewhat futzy.

I expect future designs to be a bit more refined due to @agedhorse 's skill.

 

[Red Planet]

To be fair, you do seem to focus a lot on the negative and stirring up .

I don't necessarily think it was the feature set of the 400 and 400+ that made them difficult to dial them in, rather it was the implementation of those features. In particular I don't think the Mesa graphic EQs are all that musical and the controls are somewhat futzy.

I expect future designs to be a bit more refined due to @agedhorse 's skill.

One mans thoughts are another mans stirring up dodo I suppose. I just say what I think.
We can all like the same stuff, tones, sounds, feels etc...
You cannot chart music with a slide ruler.

 

[JimmyM]

One mans thoughts are another mans stirring up dodo I suppose. I just say what I think.
We can all like the same stuff, tones, sounds, feels etc...
You cannot chart music with a slide ruler.

Actually you can. That's how math rock got started.

 

[pfschim]

I apologize I'm not trying to attack. I am trying to say what I believe. Over the years I had become frustrated with 400 bells and whistles and difficulty getting to the one good tone.

The best amp they ever made was the Mark I IMO YMMV.

Man I wish I had a hard on.

So we have to love every product and we dont it's considered hate speach. Where have I heard that before?

if you don't think that saying "Mesa has always given you 10,000 possibilities of bad tone, I just need one good one" is not a form of attack on Mesa, then you truly are pretty clueless.

I don't believe any of this for a minute .. you clearly have an agenda and are pursuing it in your own ham fisted, poorly spelled and articulated way. In your TB profile you say the following (under G.A.S List and Hobbies no less ??)

G.A.S. List:
Its is fairly obvious any gear that gets pushed by manufacturers hard on TB I will have nothing to do with. The non stop day in day out presence representatives of MI companies really turn me off.

Hobbies and Interests:
Questioning the shills at every turn.


So please spare us the "I'm only saying what I believe" b.s. ... you got a bug up your a** and can't stop exercising it on TB.

 

[JimmyM]

if you don't think that saying "Mesa has always given you 10,000 possibilities of bad tone, I just need one good one" is not a form of attack on Mesa, then you truly are pretty clueless.

I don't believe any of this for a minute .. you clearly have an agenda and are pursuing it in your own ham fisted, poorly spelled and articulated way. In your profile you say the following (under G.A.S List and Hobbies no less ??)

G.A.S. List:
Its is fairly obvious any gear that gets pushed by manufacturers hard on TB I will have nothing to do with. The non stop day in day out presence representatives of MI companies really turn me off.

Hobbies and Interests:
Questioning the shills at every turn.


So please spare us the "I'm only saying what I believe" b.s. ... you got a bug up your a** and can't stop exercising it on TB.

That is true. But I will defend his right to say it. And I will defend your right to say what you said. With freedom of speech comes responsibility for owning your speech, and you can't control how people react to it, and that's only right.

 

[Wasnex]

Haha!

I would be afraid to know how much money I have spent on gear in my life time, I suppose it's better than meth.

I have owned thousands of bass amps, thousands of basses, thousand of guitars, and thousands of guitar amps as well as mixing consoles, power amps, speaker cabs etc..... My favorite Bass is a G&L, my favorite bass amp is a GK, my favorite guitar is a Les Paul Junior, and my favorite guitar amp is my 77 Mesa Boogie Mark I 60 watt no reverb, no GEQ, with an Alnico Altech in it. One of my guitar plays has a Mark V and that thing sounds like hammered ass IMO. IIRC I think there are something like 45 relays in the Mark V. He also uses a small Boss Kantana and that thing sounds like God.

I pretty much through the entire line of MarkBass amps, my favorite being the LMIII but I just could never get along with it. For me these devices are tools used to play music in front of people. If they get the job done for you to your liking then your good. If you keep struggling with something about the tool its time to move on.

For me my best rig was the 700RB into a MarkBass 104HF but I finally opted to replace the cab with two GK CX210 cabs and that was a wise choice. I like the sound of those cabs better and the rig is a little more modular/configurable now.

I think it might be the Markbass speakers I don't get along with.

You have definitely played a lot of awesome gear. I am sure we could learn a lot if you tell us about the pieces you prefer and why you like them.

I have a pretty large collection of amps. I am a bit of a gear head and I don't tend to sell stuff. I have several amps that I am sure I would not enjoy using live all that much, because they excel at producing a sound and feel that is more traditional than I normally use. But I can totally recognize and understand why someone else would enjoy each of my amps, and in the context of my basement I enjoy playing all of the them.

When I discuss amps on Talkbass, I try to give a balanced/objective appraisal of the relative strengths and weaknesses rather than just focusing on the aspect of an amp I don't like. Different people like different things, so if I talk about an amp objectively hopefully this helps people make better purchase decisions.

Although I have tried to slow down in my collecting, the Mesa D180 is next on my bucket list. I am sort struggling with whether I should buy one are start selling off the collection, so I haven't pulled the trigger. I am pretty sure I know some of the things I will not like about a D180, but it has a reputation for producing really great OD which I am curious to explore and compare to a few of my other amps that excel in the same area. Once the D180 is pushed into distortion, I think the futzy nature of the graphic EQ will be less problematic.

 

[ThisBass]

It seems TC is not the only one on this bandwagon. There are a lot of amps out there claiming all kinds of crazy wattage ratings now, hence the thread. Isn't an SVT really a 1,000 watts by today's standards?

Notice all these high powered thingamajigs aint no louder than an old Acoustic 360.

No idea what kind of "science" you are adressing with "today's standards".
At least I can tell you that even "oldschool" common standards have never been suited to tell you how much amount of power you'll get in real world practice with a bass guitar.

Interestingly its nothing but (feasible) average power which is responsible for total (perceived) loudness in real world practice.
Without firm real world signal crest number consideratiions respectively duty cycle numbers its anyway not valid to predict any power numbers.

btw just to comprehent output power of audio amplifiers its a good idea to learn one or two things about the physics of real world signals such as audio program material and/or speach.
Its not my aim to teach you in electroacoustic science but, I'd be very carefull writing bold words without profound knowledge.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

For me it's simple, the amp is either loud enough for it's current application or it isn't. The sound (tone, timbre) is applicable to the current application or it isn't. Don't need numbers or ratings. What you really need to be concerned with is Jimmy's dinky amp post.

 

[JMarkD]

The Bass 400 and 400+ is a little confusing and misleading without knowing more about the history and especially the evolution of the different version within the 400+ model.

From the original 6 x 6550 Bass 400, there were difficulties getting reliable deliveries of tubes going back maybe 30 years so Randy decided to go with a tube that he knew well, had good performance, and that the company had an excellent and consistent supply of. First starting with the 5881, we were able to get about 45-50 watts per pair and more importantly had a nice tone (especially when overdriven) that was more forgiving than the 6550 (under that particular topology). I believe we built some earlier 400+ units with these tubes and they were around 300 watts RMS at somewhere around 3-5%THD. This was just a precursor to the more common version with screened 6L6GC tubes which in the circuit that is used can generate approx. 65 watts/pair at between 5% and 10% THD (since that's how this amp was being used, few bought it as a "clean amp"). 65W x 6 pair = 390 watts RMS and because of the combination of plate loading and a supply compliance, a ~20mSec burst was capable of roughly 500 watts RMS. Note that measuring burst power in the old days was much harder and less accurate than it is today using (for example) an AP system, so +/-25 watts would not be uncommon or unreasonable. The + references the burst power or transient power, something that is common in many of Randy's designs going back decades. It's not some kind of fad...

Note that only the GC version of the 6L6 should be used in any of these amps that originally came with the 6L6GC (STR 440) version. While the 5881 is a ruggedized, high voltage graded tube, driving the 400+ very hard will reduce the life of the tube by as much as 50% due to limits in long term plate dissipation. Under more reasonable use, there's not much difference in lifespan. This is one of the reasons for the migration to the 6L6GC (which is also graded for high voltage and mechanical noise in our branded tube).

The regular 6L6 variants are not very suitable for this amp, lifespan will be short when driven hard and there may be serious and damaging issues with voltage limit thresholds

This is good to know. I was aware of the history but I did not know about the change in the tubes from 5881 Sovteks to the 6L6GC. I "upgraded" from the 400 to the 400+ when it was first offered and still have that amp complete with the original 5881 tubes. The 400 did indeed have issues with the 6550 tubes available at that time and the 400+ solved that for sure. Mine is still working great with those original 5881 tubes. That amp is almost thirty years old and sounds as good as the day I took delivery. It no longer sees regular use but I do fire it up on a regular basis. It is a very bright and clear sounding amp for an all tube design, which is what I liked about it. I used it in a (mostly) country band so it was never pushed very hard. I actually purchased a "Spares" kit for it which I have never had to use. I need to dig those tubes out to see if they are also 5881s or if they are the STR 440 6L6s.

 

[nostatic]

That is true. But I will defend his right to say it. And I will defend your right to say what you said. With freedom of speech comes responsibility for owning your speech, and you can't control how people react to it, and that's only right.

If only people would own their provocative nonsense - instead they usually play the victim card and claim they are being oppressed...

 

[ThisBass]

Please see the following SVT CL bench test. At around 10:00 in the video, the amp makes 308W at 7% and then he bumps the power up to 340W at 10.7% distortion. At 10:40 he shows 240W at 5.8%. These measurements were at 100hz.

If really up to specs the amplifier should not show takeover/crossover artifacts such as seen at 10:30.

The amplifier should be capable to push 330 watt wthout clipping.
My 70's svt shows clipping artifacts something beyond 360 watt at 100Hz by non noticable crossover artifacts.
Some noticeable artifacts are caused by the protecting diodes though.

 

[JimmyM]

If really up to specs the amplifier should not show takeover/crossover artifacts such as seen at 10:30.

Ya, this is my problem with that test. Who knows how good a condition that amp and tubes are in? And who knows how accurate the measurements are? If all he's using is a multimeter, then it's a good bet that it's not entirely accurate.

 

[Red Planet]

if you don't think that saying "Mesa has always given you 10,000 possibilities of bad tone, I just need one good one" is not a form of attack on Mesa, then you truly are pretty clueless.

I don't believe any of this for a minute .. you clearly have an agenda and are pursuing it in your own ham fisted, poorly spelled and articulated way. In your TB profile you say the following (under G.A.S List and Hobbies no less ??)

G.A.S. List:
Its is fairly obvious any gear that gets pushed by manufacturers hard on TB I will have nothing to do with. The non stop day in day out presence representatives of MI companies really turn me off.

Hobbies and Interests:
Questioning the shills at every turn.


So please spare us the "I'm only saying what I believe" b.s. ... you got a bug up your a** and can't stop exercising it on TB.

I dont feel a bug, I'll let you know if something develops. As to spelling in your honor I'm going to do my best to m,isspell more offon.

 

[Red Planet]

No idea what kind of "science" you are adressing with "today's standards".
At least I can tell you that even "oldschool" common standards have never been suited to tell you how much amount of power you'll get in real world practice with a bass guitar.

Interestingly its nothing but (feasible) average power which is responsible for total (perceived) loudness in real world practice.
Without firm real world signal crest number consideratiions respectively duty cycle numbers its anyway not valid to predict any power numbers.

btw just to comprehent output power of audio amplifiers its a good idea to learn one or two things about the physics of real world signals such as audio program material and/or speach.
Its not my aim to teach you in electroacoustic science but, I'd be very carefull writing bold words without profound knowledge.

Yes sir, I just started playing music and I'm learning a lot now, I'll keep that in mind. Thank you!

 

[Wasnex]

If really up to specs the amplifier should not show takeover/crossover artifacts such as seen at 10:30.

The amplifier should be capable to push 330 watt wthout clipping.
My 70's svt shows clipping artifacts something beyond 360 watt at 100Hz by non noticable crossover artifacts.
Some noticeable artifacts are caused by the protecting diodes though.

Ya, this is my problem with that test. Who knows how good a condition that amp and tubes are in? And who knows how accurate the measurements are? If all he's using is a multimeter, then it's a good bet that it's not entirely accurate.

I believe if you look at the entire video there is evidence that the output tubes are not perfectly matched.

The tech is using a good deal more than a multimeter, and as far as I can tell his measurement practice appears sound. The output is measured on both a voltmeter and wattmeter and indicated power levels appear to be within a few percent of each other.

You could cross check the measurements against the peak to peak voltage indicated on the oscilloscope if you wanted further verification, but the oscilloscope would need to be set to a calibrated position, which it doesn't appear to be in. I believe 240W should be about 87.7vpp and the wave form shows only about 7.5 units of deflection, so something is off here. Either that or I don't remember how these things work .

I have read other bench tests with new tubes that provided similar test results (240-270w at 5%), and only a few of the bench tests claim the amps actually meet or exceed the 300W at 3% spec. I concede these report are not really very good statistical evidence. Perhaps someone who has worked on a bunch of SVTs can chime in. I personally am totally unconcerned.

 

[slugger]

I am very much in the "don't really care about the numbers because they don't really matter with an svt" catagory. With that said, my original svt has this taped note on the chassis (pic) from '74 (don't know if this is pre or post 6146's). Also, the previous owner of my skunkworks head SWEARS it bench tested at 365W. I can attest to the fact that they are the two noticeabley LOUDEST heads I own.

 

[cerrem]

I have worked on the vintage SVT's for close to 40 years..... I have wound these transformers as well...The power output will vary based on a few simple parameters... One being the gm of the tubes... The other being the mains voltage droop by the time it hits the actual primary windings... The other issue is the heater voltage is significantly drooped at the last power tube on the string, especially when at full power...
Just because you buy a new set of matched tubes does not mean they are strong in the gm (transconductance)..... Most of the time the new tubes would measure up to be 70% to 80% of a boogie tube would be... When I test a bunch of tubes and find 6 real strong ones I get about 330W output put.... with average tubes I get about 270W to 300W....
One common source of measurement error is the ground loop that exist between the signal generator, amplifier power source and amplifier amp load to O'Scope... To avoid this I use a Differential probe to measure across the dummy load...which is fully isolated....I use the Tek P5205....
Another source of error is the dummy load must truly be able to handle the load current with ease.....by a factor 4 at the least.... The power cable to the load must also be short and big gauge..else you will get a different power reading depending on which side of the cable you measure from...the output jack of amp or the dummy load side....
I can go on and on...but will only start more arguments....LOL

 

[fourstringburn]

Also, the previous owner of my skunkworks head SWEARS it bench tested at 365W.

365 watts?
That’s only translates to slightly better than a 1/2 dB of gain from 300w, won't be noticed.

4x power is a 6dB gain and will be noticed!

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

For me it's simple, the amp is either loud enough for it's current application or it isn't. The sound (tone, timbre) is applicable to the current application or it isn't. Don't need numbers or ratings.

I agree with this post 100%. And IMO an SVT/810E can reach volume levels far beyond my needs, even If it's providing the bass signal for the room without help from the P.A..