Amps louder than Tecamp Puma 900 but same size

[ReeV0]

Hi all,

I've got a tecamp puma 900/Eich T900, and also a reidmar 750. I bought the Tecamp because its much smaller than the reidmar, and I can fit it in my gig bag (along with my hx Stomp). However, the Reidmar is MUCH louder, also not as clean, which is fine.

Are there any other amps the same size or smaller than the tecamp, but louder?

Thanks all

 

[abarson]

How is a 900 w (4 ohms), 600 w (8 ohms) amp not loud enough?

 

[ReeV0]

How is a 900 w (4 ohms), 600 w (8 ohms) amp not loud enough?

Because I'm only playing through a Barefaced Super Midget and don't want to add/carry more speakers or weight. It's strange, the Puma 900 was testsed by BGM to be around 500W at 8ohm and 750W at 4ohm, yet the Reidmar which is 350W at 8ohm sounds so much louder.

 

[Jeff Scott]

It's strange, the Puma 900 was testsed by BGM to be around 500W at 8ohm and 750W at 4ohm, yet the Reidmar which is 350W at 8ohm sounds so much louder.

Are you basing this on the positions of the volume controls?

 

[gtirard]

Because I'm only playing through a Barefaced Super Midget and don't want to add/carry more speakers or weight. It's strange, the Puma 900 was testsed by BGM to be around 500W at 8ohm and 750W at 4ohm, yet the Reidmar which is 350W at 8ohm sounds so much louder.

Did you really compared them at full volume? Some amps deliver most of their potential with the volume knob at noon, in order to give the impression that they are more powerful than they are...

 

[ReeV0]

Are you basing this on the positions of the volume controls?

Yes, both on full volume/10. Annoyingly I didn't test them both going through their respective effects returns, to bypass whatever the preamps were doing. Then it should theoretically just be 250ASX2 vs 700ASC/X

 

[ShadowGroover]

the Reidmar is MUCH louder

To measure loudness use a decibel meter at 1 meter. Then, you'll know for sure what is actually louder. Use a frequency analysis tool while you're at it. In their absence you might not be hearing what you think.

 

[JdoubleH]

Measurements don't tell the whole story. "Sounds louder" is subjective, but entirely plausible if the lower rated amp's tone profile eq curve is louder at either a frequency you are more sensitive to, or your speakers are more sensitive to. There's more to it than that, including the room, your bass, how you play it, etc.

If it seems like the Puma is running out of gas, it could also be your reaching the excursion limits of the woofer, and more power won't move more air. You might try using a hpf to filter the extreme lows the amp (and speaker) has to work harder to reproduce.

Is anyone else complaining they need more of you? If it's just that you can't hear yourself, how close are you standing to your cabinet? Can you setup so you can stand 5-10 feet from it? Angle it at your ears too, our ankles are hard of hearing.

Oh and lay off the tone controls unless the room needs you to boost it preferably cut a specific frequency range. You'll get way more mileage out of the power your amp has.

 

[ReeV0]

To measure loudness use a decibel meter at 1 meter. Then, you'll know for sure what is actually louder. Use a frequency analysis tool while you're at it. You might not be hearing what you think.

I didn't use any equipment but my other 3 band members all thought the same thing.

I'm doing ok volume-wise for rehearsals but when playing function gigs with no PA, it would be nice to have a bit more volume. The Reidmar does a fine job live, i just dislike carrying it separately

 

[31HZ]

My first thought is that this is a gain staging problem. A 900w Puma is LOUD.

 

[Wasnex]

Super Midget Specs
​

...these were cut and pasted from the mfg's website. I bolded key specs.

PISTONIC SENSITIVITY
97dB - only fractionally less than our very loud 1x15" Compact
USABLE FREQUENCY RANGE
37Hz - 20kHz

RECOMMENDED AMP POWER
200-600W RMS
MAX CONTINUOUS BROADBAND SPL
127dB - louder than the best 2x10"s
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE
8 ohms​

No idea where they get 127dB?

Assuming the cab can handle 600W and the sensitivity is 97dB 1W/1m:

Calculated SPL = [Log(600) x 10] + 97 = 124.78dB.

I would be surprised if even this figure is not a bit optimistic, as I doubt the mechanical power handling below 100hz is actually 600W.

To get 127dB from 97dB sensitivity requires 1,000W of power handling. Here is the math:

Calculated SPL = [Log(1000) x 10] + 97 = 127dB.

Rather than getting a more powerful amp, you need to accept reality and get a speaker that can actually play louder without bursting into flames or shooting the cone across the room. Getting a second (matching) cab, would probably give you the desired headroom.

Regarding why a 350W amp seems to play louder than a 500W amp. My guess is it has to do with the voicing. A brighter amp will tend to sound louder. This is because our ears are most sensitive to mid range frequencies...Ref: Fletcher Munson curve.

It could also be that the 350W amp actually has more dynamic headroom. Perhaps the 500W amp hits the wall at 500W and the 350W amp can produce clean bursts that are >500W. If BGM did Amp Labs on both amps, check the burst power measurements.

If you are curious:

Calculated SPL at 500W = [Log(500) x 10] + 97 = 123.99dB

Calculated SPL at 350W = [Log(350) x 10] + 97 = 122.44dB

Decibel Difference between 350W and 500W = [Log(500/350) x 10] = 1.55dB

We generally assume you need a 3dB change to clearly hear a difference, so 350W to 500W is essentially considered insignificant.

To get a 3dB change, you double the usable power:

Decibel Difference between 350W and 700W = [Log(700/350) x 10] = 3.01dB

Keep in mind that as speakers are pushed to their limit that power compression becomes more of a factor. So applying 3dB more power will produce <3dB SPL change.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Did you really compared them at full volume? Some amps deliver most of their potential with the volume knob at noon, in order to give the impression that they are more powerful than they are...

Yeah, I noticed this about my new-to-me Reidmar 750...I've attributed this your reasons given and the design / gain structure. Mine gets ungawdly loud with the gain at 10:00 and master volume past 8:00. Haven't cranked it to gig volume yet but it's on the agenda. FWIW, the enclosure is an Epifani 3x10.

Riis

 

[ReeV0]

Super Midget Specs
​

...these were cut and pasted from the mfg's website. I bolded key specs.

PISTONIC SENSITIVITY
97dB - only fractionally less than our very loud 1x15" Compact
USABLE FREQUENCY RANGE
37Hz - 20kHz

RECOMMENDED AMP POWER
200-600W RMS
MAX CONTINUOUS BROADBAND SPL
127dB - louder than the best 2x10"s
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE
8 ohms​

No idea where they get 127dB?

Assuming the cab can handle 600W and the sensitivity is 97dB 1W/1m:

Calculated SPL = [Log(600) x 10] + 97 = 124.78dB.

I would be surprised if even this figure is not a bit optimistic, as I doubt the mechanical power handling below 100hz is actually 600W.

To get 127dB from 97dB sensitivity requires 1,000W of power handling. Here is the math:

Calculated SPL = [Log(1000) x 10] + 97 = 127dB.

Rather than getting a more powerful amp, you need to accept reality and get a speaker that can actually play louder without bursting into flames or shooting the cone across the room. Getting a second (matching) cab, would probably give you the desired headroom.

Regarding why a 350W amp seems to play louder than a 500W amp. My guess is it has to do with the voicing. A brighter amp will tend to sound louder. This is because our ears are most sensitive to mid range frequencies...Ref: Fletcher Munson curve.

It could also be that the 350W amp actually has more dynamic headroom. Perhaps the 500W amp hits the wall at 500W and the 350W amp can produce clean bursts that are >500W. If BGM did Amp Labs on both amps, check the burst power measurements.

If you are curious:

Calculated SPL at 500W = [Log(500) x 10] + 97 = 123.99dB

Calculated SPL at 350W = [Log(350) x 10] + 97 = 122.44dB

Decibel Difference between 350W and 500W = [Log(500/350) x 10] = 1.55dB

We generally assume you need a 3dB change to clearly hear a difference, so 350W to 500W is essentially considered insignificant.

To get a 3dB change, you double the usable power:

Decibel Difference between 350W and 700W = [Log(700/350) x 10] = 3.01dB

Keep in mind that as speakers are pushed to their limit that power compression becomes more of a factor. So applying 3dB more power will produce <3dB SPL change.

Very informative, thanks for taking the time to detail that out

 

[ReeV0]

Yeah, I noticed this about my new-to-me Reidmar 750...I've attributed this your reasons given and the design / gain structure. Mine gets ungawdly loud with the gain at 10:00 and master volume past 8:00. Haven't cranked it to gig volume yet but it's on the agenda. FWIW, the enclosure is an Epifani 3x10.

Riis

Tbh it's the loudest amp by far that I've ever owned, and I've owned a hell of a lot of amps (all class-D mind you)

 

[Zooberwerx]

Tbh it's the loudest amp by far that I've ever owned, and I've owned a hell of a lot of amps (all class-D mind you)

Same here but, again, it could be gain staging as mentioned. I really need to experiment with the Reidmar's gain to find the "sweet spot" where I get a quasi-linear volume sweep on the far side. FWIW, the comp is one of the better one-knobby-jobbies.

Riis

 

[Topkat13]

Louder? As in db's?

 

[mcnach]

Because I'm only playing through a Barefaced Super Midget and don't want to add/carry more speakers or weight. It's strange, the Puma 900 was testsed by BGM to be around 500W at 8ohm and 750W at 4ohm, yet the Reidmar which is 350W at 8ohm sounds so much louder.

I think you're overestimating what a small 12" cab can do, and you're risking damaging it. If you need to be louder than you are, with that equipment, the answer is more speakers not more watts.

 

[mcnach]

Because I'm only playing through a Barefaced Super Midget and don't want to add/carry more speakers or weight. It's strange, the Puma 900 was testsed by BGM to be around 500W at 8ohm and 750W at 4ohm, yet the Reidmar which is 350W at 8ohm sounds so much louder.

Different amps, if one is a bit more midrangey it can feel louder when it's just a different EQ and how we don't perceive all frequencies equally.

 

[agedhorse]

Not enough speaker for your needs IMO.

 

[bass151]

So two posts here that feel the 750 is the loudest class d thev"ve used and I have no reason to doubt that. Do you both use a fair amount of low end. Read the EBS amps are very clean but lack a bit on the bottom.