Double Bass An Ehrlund blog, sort of

[bassfacer22]

Will download tomorrow and check.. But I already know the EHRLUND is the closest to producing a good tone without a mic.. I regret not knowing about it earlier..

I guess the only potential problem is the feedback if you need really loud volume..

 

[Ric Vice]

Will download tomorrow and check.. But I already know the EHRLUND is the closest to producing a good tone without a mic.. I regret not knowing about it earlier..

I guess the only potential problem is the feedback if you need really loud volume..

Bassfacer22,
Following your posts on another thread I think it's important to note that you are working with an Eminence EUB, not a full size bass, with all the acoustical properties they posses.

Ric

 

[bassfacer22]

tried the Ehrlund on an acoustic guitar.. it didn't sound that loud and was very easy to feedback.. I remember reading something about some people having some defective ehrlund pickups.. is it possible I have one of these? because it seems when I push lightly with my thumb on the triangle, it becomes full sounding and
loud all the sudden.. but when I let go, it becomes thin and small sounding again.. and I try to turn up and then it feedsback..

I'm sure I've put on the correct ammount of sticky putty and pushed it close to the instrument body..

but only when I push lightly with my thumb, does it become loud and the kind of sound I actually want..

ideas?

 

[Ric Vice]

tried the Ehrlund on an acoustic guitar.. it didn't sound that loud and was very easy to feedback.. I remember reading something about some people having some defective ehrlund pickups.. is it possible I have one of these? because it seems when I push lightly with my thumb on the triangle, it becomes full sounding and
loud all the sudden.. but when I let go, it becomes thin and small sounding again.. and I try to turn up and then it feedsback..

I'm sure I've put on the correct ammount of sticky putty and pushed it close to the instrument body..

but only when I push lightly with my thumb, does it become loud and the kind of sound I actually want..

ideas?

Bace Facer 22,

Since I've had lots of practical experience with the Ehrlund. Here's what I'll suggest you try, but before we get into my ideas here's some things you need to know.

1. If you're not using the Ehrlund Pre Amp, or something else, like a Headway EDB-2, in front of your amplifier, you'll never get the gain you need out the Ehrlund.

2. Your Eminence EUB is a laminate instrument, with a smaller acoustic chamber, so it cannot possibly give the EAP as much signal/vibration to work with.

3 G. Edward had to get David Gage, to produce a custom Realist for the Eminence, because the standard/newer Realist currently on the market, didn't have enough

output.

4. Only a handfull of players have tried to use the Ehrlund on EUB's. Apparently the EAP works well, with a Kolstine Travel Bass, but that bass is a fully carved instrument, constructed

from Poplar and not a composite like yours.

5. The number of players that have been able to sucesfully use the Ehrlund EAP on their full sized carved basses isn't near as large as it is for the Full Circle or Realist.


Ok now that we have that info, here are a few ideas.

1. With putty, less is more. Take some of in small increments to see if you get better results.

2. Move the pickup all over the top to see if you can find a sweet spot. I used a pair of headphones to listen for the area that sounded best.

3. When you're in port at the luthier, take the EAP with you and see if they'll let you attach it to one of their basses. That way you can tell

if it's got an issue.

4. In the final analysis, there are basses where the EAP just won't get a strong enough signal to meet your needs. My guess is that you'll be better of with the Full Circle.

P.S. Take you time doing this.
Ric

 

[bassfacer22]

Will try that..

I do use the preamp.. And I have noticed when pushing on the pickup, it all the sudden becomes fill and loud with the eminence bass.. So surely something is possible..

If you don't believe me or want to hear and see it, I will absolutely make a video showing the sound of me pushing on the EHRLUND and all the sudden the sound becomes full and loud..

Maybe I'm putting too much putty..

But for now, I'm just experimenting with the EHRLUND.. The full circle beats the Living CRAP out of the David gauge realist joke of a pickup..

Why Gary decided to go with that when there was the full circle, blows my mind..

I'd call him and tell him that but last he said to me was he tried them all and the realist was the "one"..

Wrong on that one, once I put the full circle on it destroyed the realist, but anyway about the EHRLUND, I think it could work with the eminence but need to figure out how to keep the pressure on the EHRLUND as that's when it all the sudden sounds loud and full..

Maybe I'll record it to show you..

 

[drurb]

...but before you make a video, try the "less is more" approach on the putty.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

And use the putty only in the corners.
If you press on the pickup to fix it on the top, the putty spreads in all direction making the area of contact much larger. If that happens, pull the pickup from the top, remove the putty that went towards the center and apply it again to the top.
The putty balls I used got smaller and smaller, 1 mm diameter would be enough.

The japanese MSP is easier to apply, but a bit less good sounding than the Ehrlund and you have to take care not to damage any magnetic data storage like bank and credit cards and computer hard disks, since they use Neodymium magnets to fix the pickup on the top. But since you need to order it from japan, you need to check with customs and in your current situation this is a no-go.

The output from the MSP is bit higher than from the Ehrlund, but it has a better sound with a preamp. Sounds different with a 10 MegOhms impedance buffer than with the 5MegOhms Ehrlund preamp, I like the Ehrlund preamp a bit better, but if I had to pay again for the Ehrlund preamp, I would stay with my 10€ impedance buffer.

Keep experimenting with the Ehrlund putty and top position.
This can really take a lot of time.

I doubt your Ehrlund is damaged. Mine gets louder and feed back easily if I press on the pickup. The output is less strong than the Shadow or Full Circle and has less low frequency content. But a narrow ply top cannot vibrate as good as a carved big acoustic instrument.
So the hints by the acoustic double bass players might not work for your instrument. The problem is you never know if you haven't found the spot that works well of if there is no spot that works well. So after some time you might need to decide to keep on experimenting or pass the pickup on to someone else. But don't blame the pickup for this. It's your decision and not every pickup that works well for others might work well for you and your instrument.

BTW, couldn't the luthier help you with your bad bridge leg to repair it and install the full circle there?

 

[Ric Vice]

I do use the preamp.. And I have noticed when pushing on the pickup, it all the sudden becomes fill and loud with the eminence bass.. So surely something is

Maybe I'm putting too much putty..

But for now, I'm just experimenting with the EHRLUND.. The full circle beats the Living CRAP out of the David gauge realist joke of a pickup..

Why Gary decided to go with that when there was the full circle, blows my mind..

I'd call him and tell him that but last he said to me was he tried them all and the realist was the "one"..

Wrong on that one, once I put the full circle on it destroyed the realist, but anyway about the EHRLUND, I think it could work with the eminence but need to figure out how to keep the pressure on the EHRLUND as that's when it all the sudden sounds loud and full..

Maybe I'll record it to show you..

Bass Facer 22,

I'd love to hear it. For me, the Full Circle is missing one crutial thing, you cannot get a decent sound with a bow regardless of how you EQ that pickup. The Eminence has been around for quite a while well over 10 years, so it's

quite possible that when Gary was rolling out the Eminence, the Full Circle wasn't that popular yet, or he didn't want to use aluminum adjusters on the bridge, going with ebony ones instead. You wouldn't want to increase the pressure

to much on the Ehrlund as it you could actually crack the material. There is one thing I did experiment with that work, but it's stupidly expensive. I don't use the TackIt adhesive putty, that Ehrlund sends with the EAP. Schertler has a similar putty, that has a much thinner viscosity, so you can apply it in smaller amounts, and it still adheres to the top and pickup. Essentially it creates a thinner, flatter, stickier film between the EAP and the top of the instrument. The EAP is not supposed have it's underside surface, flush with the top of your bass, only the corners of the pickup are in close contact with the surface of the top. If you want to try it Django books has it in the U.S. Adhesive Putty - Single Pack - DjangoBooks.com I'm sure it's avaliable on the continent as well.

Ric

 

[SteveMoodie]

Had my first gig with Ehrlund last night. I couldn't get it to any usable volume before feeding back. I ended up having to give up on it during sound check and plugging into my Full Circle. Such a pain because it sounds so good! Moving the Ehrlund placement doesn't seem to affect volume much - just the tone.

I'm hoping it was just the room.

 

[Ric Vice]

Had my first gig with Ehrlund last night. I couldn't get it to any usable volume before feeding back. I ended up having to give up on it during sound check and plugging into my Full Circle. Such a pain because it sounds so good! Moving the Ehrlund placement doesn't seem to affect volume much - just the tone.

I'm hoping it was just the room.

Steve,
My first question to new Ehrlund users is did you purchase a either the Ehrlund Preamp or something similar? The EAP's gain structure is linear, so without a preamp you'll never get the volume that you require.

Ric

 

[drurb]

Steve,
My first question to new Ehrlund users is did you purchase a either the Ehrlund Preamp or something similar? The EAP's gain structure is linear, so without a preamp you'll never get the volume that you require.

Ric

Well, I'm not sure what is meant by "linear gain structure," but it is the case that the EAP's output is quite low. That's one reason why a good pre-amp is required. The second is that it should be loaded properly. The input impedance of the Ehrlund pre-amp is about 5 Mohm.

 

[bassfacer22]

I will put up a video in 2-3 days so you can hear and see this..

 

[SteveMoodie]

Steve,
My first question to new Ehrlund users is did you purchase a either the Ehrlund Preamp or something similar? The EAP's gain structure is linear, so without a preamp you'll never get the volume that you require.

Ric

Hi Ric - yeah I have the EAP preamp (which is fantastic sounding). I also briefly tried my Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Bass preamp, which was even quieter and sounded worse.
Perhaps, will need to just have a bigger amp for slightly louder gigs - I'm possibly only able to push my GK 150MB to higher volumes with the Full Circle.

 

[Ric Vice]

Well, I'm not sure what is meant by "linear gain structure," but it is the case that the EAP's output is quite low. That's one reason why a good pre-amp is required. The second is that it should be loaded properly. The input impedance of the Ehrlund pre-amp is about 5 Mohm.

Durb,
Sorry, just quoting what Goran Ehrlund mentioned to me in a email once upon a time.

Ric

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I assume with linear gain structure (which is indeed a rather misleading description if my assumption is true) is meant, that the envelope of sound of the pickup is the same as the envelope of sound of the acoustic radiation, not the rather compressed envelope of a bridge mounted pickup.

 

[drurb]

I assume with linear gain structure (which is indeed a rather misleading description if my assumption is true) is meant, that the envelope of sound of the pickup is the same as the envelope of sound of the acoustic radiation, not the rather compressed envelope of a bridge mounted pickup.

I think you're right and that fits my observation that the EAP reproduces relatively well the temporal attack/decay of the DB that is present acoustically. I believe, however, that the more compressed envelope transduced by bridge-mounted pickups does not arise largely from the characteristics of those devices, per se, but, rather, largely as a result of such pickups transducing what arrives at the bridge. I think if one mounted the EAP at the bridge, a similar relatively compressed envelope would result.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I believe, however, that the more compressed envelope transduced by bridge-mounted pickups does not arise largely from the characteristics of those devices, per se, but, rather, largely as a result of such pickups transducing what arrives at the bridge. I think if one mounted the EAP at the bridge, a similar relatively compressed envelope would result.

That's what I meant. It is the position of the transducer giving the different kind of envelope, since at the bridge there is more of the string vibration getting captured than of the top radiation.

But all of us who tried or play a top mounted transducer know that even on the top we can get very different results that sometimes don't have much in common with the acoustic radiation audible to a typical listener. The reason is that the transducer only captures the vibration of a single point (or a very small area). So even if the transducer by itself is linear, the output of it doesn't need to be compared to the acoustical output. The same is valid for any bride mounted pickups that might transduce more or less linearly (the eigen-resonance or pressure loading of a piezo crystal might compromise the linearity a bit), but the signal at the transducer point on the bridge is different in characteristic to the acoustically radiated signal, independent of the transducer used there.

But don't try to glue your Underwood on the top, it won't work (well), since they are pressure driven pickups whereas the top needs either a bending of better an inertia driven pickup. So the kind of transducer does play a role in the caption of the signal, but mostly to get a strong one, less to get an undistorted one.

 

[drurb]

That's what I meant. It is the position of the transducer giving the different kind of envelope, since at the bridge there is more of the string vibration getting captured than of the top radiation.

Indeed. If you read my posts on the topic in this thread and elsewhere, you'll see that I explained that years ago and have repeated it several times. See here, for example and the many posts that followed. If you search under my username and for the keyword "attack/decay," you can read the relevant discussions that have taken place here. You might enjoy them.

But all of us who tried or play a top mounted transducer know that even on the top we can get very different results that sometimes don't have much in common with the acoustic radiation audible to a typical listener. The reason is that the transducer only captures the vibration of a single point (or a very small area). So even if the transducer by itself is linear, the output of it doesn't need to be compared to the acoustical output. The same is valid for any bride mounted pickups that might transduce more or less linearly (the eigen-resonance or pressure loading of a piezo crystal might compromise the linearity a bit), but the signal at the transducer point on the bridge is different in characteristic to the acoustically radiated signal, independent of the transducer used there.

Yup- again, I've discussed this very situation right in these threads. For example, see here. Nice to know we agree.

But don't try to glue your Underwood on the top, it won't work (well), since they are pressure driven pickups whereas the top needs either a bending of better an inertia driven pickup. So the kind of transducer does play a role in the caption of the signal, but mostly to get a strong one, less to get an undistorted one.

I agree. In fact, that's why I was careful to say that one could do the experiment by placing the EAP at the bridge and not with a pressure-sensitive device on the body.

 

[stefaniw80401]

Had my first gig with Ehrlund last night. I couldn't get it to any usable volume before feeding back. I ended up having to give up on it during sound check and plugging into my Full Circle. Such a pain because it sounds so good! Moving the Ehrlund placement doesn't seem to affect volume much - just the tone.

I'm hoping it was just the room.

Well yes, that's exactly the problem. You absolutely can not use this pickup without a phase reverse switch on your amp or preamp. Every room will have a different reflection and you'll always be reaching for the phase switch.

I use a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ/DI with my EAP. The phase reversal switch is invaluable. I dial in the HPF to about 12 o'clock and the compression to around 10 o'clock. The input and output gains worked out to about 12 o'clock when I run to my sound board. The EQ sliders are flat because I guess I found the sweet spot (!?)

Last week my bluegrass trio played a large event center with a large PA, monitors, and sound man. He said it sounded great out front. Bass always sounds boomy on stage behind a PA.

I also have no problems playing smaller tavern venues with this setup.

- Mark

 

[drurb]

...I dial in the HPF to about 12 o'clock and the compression to around 10 o'clock.

Just a note that, to the extent compression is employed, one reduces what is typically one of the most desirable aspects of the EAP-- it's ability to transduce the temporal attack/decay.