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Double Bass An Ehrlund blog, sort of
- Thread starter drurb
- Start date
If you keep the cable long, leave the plug as is. The cable is really long enough to go to the floor. It might even be long enough to go to the amp. If you change the end of the long EAP cable to a jack, you need an additional cable from the jack of the EAP cable to the preamp, so the total cable length to he preamp gets even longer. This is not a good idea.
If you have an acoustic double bass at home I would not shorten the cable before trying this instrument at home and on stage.
You might want to order the jack to be soldered later onto the cable, just to have a good jack and let some experienced person solder it onto the best length of the cable.
From a electromechanical standpoint it might be better to keep the cable short (under 1 meter), but it doesn't matter as long as you are experimenting.
As from whom to order: some decision must be done by yourself. As long as it works, both are good sources. I know Jonas well and Daf a bit. There is always the coin as a decision helper...
If you have an acoustic double bass at home I would not shorten the cable before trying this instrument at home and on stage.
You might want to order the jack to be soldered later onto the cable, just to have a good jack and let some experienced person solder it onto the best length of the cable.
From a electromechanical standpoint it might be better to keep the cable short (under 1 meter), but it doesn't matter as long as you are experimenting.
As from whom to order: some decision must be done by yourself. As long as it works, both are good sources. I know Jonas well and Daf a bit. There is always the coin as a decision helper...
@fran-diaz
I was thinking to keep the cable longer and keep the original jack.. It just plugs into the preamp anyway right..
However, You mention the cable picks up things as well? I guess rolling it together in a circle loop hopefully will solve that with a rubber band or something..
I feel like I shouldn't modify it yet and just get it stock and use it..
I found a company in Southampton that takes orders and holds them for you for pickup.. they are a new company - they are going to make a killing with people who need addresses to ship to.. (the millions of people working or traveling abroad!) each ship that comes in almost every week has atleast 1000 crew who always want to order and ship things..
anyway I'll get the pickup now! in 12 days!
Can't wait to see if this is going to be a huge mistake or the Holy Grail.. ha
I was thinking to order a backup pickup as well.. Shadow? but I hate anything under the bridge.. maybe something that clips on.. or the full circle?
I was thinking to keep the cable longer and keep the original jack.. It just plugs into the preamp anyway right..
However, You mention the cable picks up things as well? I guess rolling it together in a circle loop hopefully will solve that with a rubber band or something..
I feel like I shouldn't modify it yet and just get it stock and use it..
I found a company in Southampton that takes orders and holds them for you for pickup.. they are a new company - they are going to make a killing with people who need addresses to ship to.. (the millions of people working or traveling abroad!) each ship that comes in almost every week has atleast 1000 crew who always want to order and ship things..
anyway I'll get the pickup now! in 12 days!
Can't wait to see if this is going to be a huge mistake or the Holy Grail.. ha
I was thinking to order a backup pickup as well.. Shadow? but I hate anything under the bridge.. maybe something that clips on.. or the full circle?
I strongly recommend that you shorten the cable and terminate it with a Switchcraft 121 TS jack. Fan Diaz is correct that the cable can be highly microphonic. That occurs, not because the cable is electrically microphonic, but because the cable ends up transmitting vibration directly into the pickup. So, if you drop the cable to the floor or use it to make a direct run to the pre-amp, you WILL end up with all manner of noise from the cable hitting the bass or other things. Wrapping the long cable in a spool while leaving it terminated in a plug is also not a good idea. First, it's difficult to wrap it and keep it from being susceptible to vibration. Second, as DoubleMidi noted, then you'd need a female-to-female adapter to make the run to the pre-amp and the effective cable-length to the pre-amp becomes that much longer.
I've had plenty of experience with the Ehrlund. IME, the absolute best option is to shorten the cable and terminate it with a jack. As you can see from the pictures I posted, when I shortened mine, I left a single loop that is suspended between the tailpiece and the top. That extra length is sufficient to place the EAP at a variety of positions over a wide range.
DoubleMidi notes that shortening the cable and terminating it with a jack means that you will then be using a cable to make the run to the pre-amp. He is correct that one usually strives to keep such low-level runs as short as possible because they can introduce noise and interference. In practice, however, running a long cable from the tailpiece jack to the pre-amp with the Ehrlund has never resulted in any ill effects. I've been doing exactly that for years and have NEVER had a problem. The impedances involved are such that interference and noise are simply not an issue, nor are there any undesirable effects on the spectral profile ("frequency response") of the EAP. That's really not a surprise, given that players are successfully running long cables from piezos to pre-amps all the time. The EAP is, after all, a piezo.
Actually, by shortening the cable on the EAP and then using a standard, high-quality instrument cable to make the run to the pre-amp, you end up substituting a length of cable that is less susceptible to electrical noise, etc. for a length of cable that is more susceptible to such noise.
I have my jack mounted on the tailpiece. I use a high-quality, and reasonably long cable to connect from the tailpiece jack to the Ehrlund pre that sits atop my EA Doubler. I then run a very short cable from the output of the pre to the input of the Doubler. It has worked flawlessly. Leaving the cable long is what produces the headaches.
Once again, here's my setup. The pic shows it before I switched out the Gollihur jack for the Switchcraft 121 TS.
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+1 I found that with the EAP, it's very important to isolate the cable from any moving surface ot your instrument.
+1 nor have I, I use rather expensive cables, but it's not really necessary. I've been using the Ehrlund for 5 years now and I haven't had any issues with shortening the pickup lead, in favor of running the cable length all the way to your amp.
Ric
Ok so I didn't order it yet, I was going to send the order tonight to Daf..
So you guys are saying the better way to go is to shorten the cable and get the switchcraft jack installed..
Maybe Jonas has to do that?
I'll find out shortly
So that's correct right?
Could you post up a picture of your EHRLUND connected to the preamp and then connected to the amp?
Maybe I'm not fully understanding yet..
So you guys are saying the better way to go is to shorten the cable and get the switchcraft jack installed..
Maybe Jonas has to do that?
I'll find out shortly
So that's correct right?
Could you post up a picture of your EHRLUND connected to the preamp and then connected to the amp?
Maybe I'm not fully understanding yet..
If you use the jack at the tailpiece, the cable from the jack to the preamp can be very short if you want to mount the preamp at the tailpiece too or at the bow quiver, medium short if you put the preamp on the floor near the bass, or long if you think it won't matter.
But in any case the cable between jack and preamp should be of some quality (not every medium expensive cable has that quality, but you don't have to spend much to get a good one). But with 5 MegOhms input impedance the cable won't be extremely microphonic (means sensible to knocks at the cable that get amplified). Just don't use a thin cheap Chinese cable for that.
Don't forget to order one when you want the shortened cable with the jack or you might have one cable too less to use your new pickup on the ship...
I don't know if Daf shortens the cable too and how much experience he has in that (since it is a bit delicate). Jonas has a lot, but he is also a bit further away than Daf. You can even tell Jonas how long you want the cable (just in case you want to check out the upper part of the body too). But I'm sure Daf would do that too.
Browse through the photos in the Ehrlund threads, at least Vunz showed how he mounted it at the tailpiece and that's basically the same I did myself.
But in any case the cable between jack and preamp should be of some quality (not every medium expensive cable has that quality, but you don't have to spend much to get a good one). But with 5 MegOhms input impedance the cable won't be extremely microphonic (means sensible to knocks at the cable that get amplified). Just don't use a thin cheap Chinese cable for that.
Don't forget to order one when you want the shortened cable with the jack or you might have one cable too less to use your new pickup on the ship...
I don't know if Daf shortens the cable too and how much experience he has in that (since it is a bit delicate). Jonas has a lot, but he is also a bit further away than Daf. You can even tell Jonas how long you want the cable (just in case you want to check out the upper part of the body too). But I'm sure Daf would do that too.
Browse through the photos in the Ehrlund threads, at least Vunz showed how he mounted it at the tailpiece and that's basically the same I did myself.
Yes, absolutely.
I don't have a pic of that but I'll try to explain. You've seen the pic of the Ehrlund jack mounted on my tailpiece. Yes? Okay, you take a regular instrument cable with a 1/4" phone jack at either end and plug it into the jack on the tailpiece. Now, in my case, the other end of that multi-foot instrument cable is plugged into the INPUT of the Ehrlund pre that is sitting feet away on my rig right on top of my amp. I then use a very short instrument cable (about 6" long, Invalid Link Removed) to go from the OUTPUT of the Ehrlund pre to the input of my EA doubler. Good?
I don't mount electronics on my tailpiece. The jack is enough of a compromise for me.
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Ok thanks so if I'm finally on track here now, to be able to use the EHRLUND when it arrives, as long as I get the shortened cable and switchjack preinstalled by Daf or Jonas, I should be able to just use a small patch cable like in the pictured moen 1/4 cable above.. And I can then use the EHRLUND
- that small (essentially just a patch cable for pedals for guitarists) cable is all I need to connect the jack to the preamp yes?
So I have the triangle EHRLUND on the bass which has the shortened cable and switchjack ... And then that mono 1/4 small cable to the EHRLUND preamp..
And then my regular guitar cable to my amp right?
Sorry if I'm confused but that's it right?
I'm gonna buy 2 different pickups so I case one I don't like..
The Shadow - I'm thinking the one that goes in the wings of the bridge..
- that small (essentially just a patch cable for pedals for guitarists) cable is all I need to connect the jack to the preamp yes?
So I have the triangle EHRLUND on the bass which has the shortened cable and switchjack ... And then that mono 1/4 small cable to the EHRLUND preamp..
And then my regular guitar cable to my amp right?
Sorry if I'm confused but that's it right?
I'm gonna buy 2 different pickups so I case one I don't like..
The Shadow - I'm thinking the one that goes in the wings of the bridge..
Nope-- Picture this. Your bass is at one end of the room with the Ehrlund triangle on it with the shortened cable and Switchcraft jack mounted to the tailpiece. At the other end of the room is your amp with the little Ehrlund pre-amp sitting on top of it. Connect the long instrument cable to the jack on the bass. Take that cable all the way across the room to your rig where the Ehrlund pre-amp is waiting. Plug the other end of the long cable into the input of the pre-amp. Use the short cable to connect the output of the pre-amp to your amp.
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Ok I see so give me the "picture" if I don't get the shortened cable and switchjack modification when buying this.. What changes? Just the preamp has to be near the bass? Instead of across the room on top of the amp..
I want the preamp to be in range of me to be able to make adjustments if needed.. So maybe it should be mounted on the bass.. It's essentially just volume on the preamp right? So once I set the preamp volume I probably won't touch it again..
So I want the little preamp to be on the bass I think.. I don't care about it being on the floor or on top of the amp..
So do I need the shortened cable and switchjack or not for my purposes. ?
I just want to play my bass and have it sound more realistic and not nasal and boomy.. I think the EHRLUND will do this and I just want to plug my bass into my amp and if I want to change settings, I'll change them on my amp.. So what setup would best suit me?
Hope this makes sense..
And I really appreciate the help..
I want the preamp to be in range of me to be able to make adjustments if needed.. So maybe it should be mounted on the bass.. It's essentially just volume on the preamp right? So once I set the preamp volume I probably won't touch it again..
So I want the little preamp to be on the bass I think.. I don't care about it being on the floor or on top of the amp..
So do I need the shortened cable and switchjack or not for my purposes. ?
I just want to play my bass and have it sound more realistic and not nasal and boomy.. I think the EHRLUND will do this and I just want to plug my bass into my amp and if I want to change settings, I'll change them on my amp.. So what setup would best suit me?
Hope this makes sense..
And I really appreciate the help..
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If your amp is not usually near enough to you to make adjustments and you want to be able to change only the level (and polarity or "phase) on the fly then, yes, you'll want the pre-amp near the bass. If you don't mind it mounted on the bass, then it would make sense for you to do that. In that case, you could plug the Ehrlund cable right into the pre-amp and then run a long cable from the pre-amp to your amp. The problem will be, as mentioned before, having that long cable attached to the pickup. It's difficult to wrap up and keep from causing problems. You could shorten it but keep a male plug on the end but I wouldn't do that. Rather, for maximum flexibility, I would still shorten the cable and put a Switchcraft jack on the end. Then, I'd use a little short cable to go from the jack to the pre-amp mounted on the bass. Then, the long cable would run from the bass-mounted pre-amp to the amp. That setup would allow you to do just about anything you want in the future.
So, it would be as you said:
Bassfacer22, you were right and it works for both situations.
Drurb prefers the preamp at the amp because he doesn't want more weight at the tailpiece which can alter the sound. I prefer the preamp at the bow quiver, so the influence on the sound is less than on the tailpiece (but I needed to pad the preamp to avoid ruining the basses top), and I can control the volume and phase. But that might change. For experimenting with the position (on stage after you found some places) turn down the volume on the preamp, reposition the EAP, turn up the volume. Much easier with the preamp on the bass in reach.
But it doesn't matter which cable you use for what, the short one should be long enough to connect the EAP jack to the preamp (when it's close to the bass, probably on the floor) or from the preamp lying on your amp to the amp.
If you want the preamp on your amp (maybe later) you might want to fix the preamp there (the cable might want to pull it down) or put it on the floor in front of the amp. If you fix the preamp on your bass or on your amp half a meter is enough, otherwise a meter or one and a half might be needed.
If you get it with the shortened cable, you can always send it back and ask to shorten it again a bit (for a small fee) if it is long enough in the first place. You cannot make the cable longer without a rather heavy jack/plug.
Drurb prefers the preamp at the amp because he doesn't want more weight at the tailpiece which can alter the sound. I prefer the preamp at the bow quiver, so the influence on the sound is less than on the tailpiece (but I needed to pad the preamp to avoid ruining the basses top), and I can control the volume and phase. But that might change. For experimenting with the position (on stage after you found some places) turn down the volume on the preamp, reposition the EAP, turn up the volume. Much easier with the preamp on the bass in reach.
But it doesn't matter which cable you use for what, the short one should be long enough to connect the EAP jack to the preamp (when it's close to the bass, probably on the floor) or from the preamp lying on your amp to the amp.
If you want the preamp on your amp (maybe later) you might want to fix the preamp there (the cable might want to pull it down) or put it on the floor in front of the amp. If you fix the preamp on your bass or on your amp half a meter is enough, otherwise a meter or one and a half might be needed.
If you get it with the shortened cable, you can always send it back and ask to shorten it again a bit (for a small fee) if it is long enough in the first place. You cannot make the cable longer without a rather heavy jack/plug.
Ok I think I'm starting to get it.. Thanks for all the replies..
My concern is solely to try to avoid the problem of extra noises from bumping the "longer" wire from the triangle to the preamp.. I think you guys were saying the cable from the triangle is micro phonic..
So you guys said its picks up things even from the cable if I understood correct..
So they'd pretty much the only thing I want to make sure I take care of.
So if that's correct so far - My last thing I need to confirm :
Whether I get the switchjack or not is solely for allowing me to move the preamp further away right?? Or using a guitar plug to another preamp or amp further away..
Remember guys this is to try on an eminence small portable removable neck 5-string upright bass!
So I just need whatever best setup allows me to not hear weird noises from the bass etc (rattles..)
This is a new bass though so there shouldn't be any rattles yet..
Thanks..
My concern is solely to try to avoid the problem of extra noises from bumping the "longer" wire from the triangle to the preamp.. I think you guys were saying the cable from the triangle is micro phonic..
So you guys said its picks up things even from the cable if I understood correct..
So they'd pretty much the only thing I want to make sure I take care of.
So if that's correct so far - My last thing I need to confirm :
Whether I get the switchjack or not is solely for allowing me to move the preamp further away right?? Or using a guitar plug to another preamp or amp further away..
Remember guys this is to try on an eminence small portable removable neck 5-string upright bass!
So I just need whatever best setup allows me to not hear weird noises from the bass etc (rattles..)
This is a new bass though so there shouldn't be any rattles yet..
Thanks..
I found shortening the wire and re-soldering the plug easy and "straight ahead". Also, I like the Erlund preamp on the tailpiece because I can adjust volume and phase from playing position. This lets me adjust easily volume to avoid feedback, especially when putting the bass down. Also, I'm slowly learning to turn down for arco, since on my bass, it is much louder than pizz.
Steven
Steven
A high impedance together with a softly shielded thin cable can make a cable microphonic, which means knocking against it gets into the electrical signal.
The stuff you might get much easier with the EAP is that knocks, bangs and vibration against something hard is transferred mechanically towards the EAP and the EAP sensor transfers that into an electrical signal, since it is some kind of vibration.
The latter one can be reduced by making a loop with the EAP cable and try to avoid any contact of the cable with the top or tailpiece (except for the jack, that needs to be fixed somewhere).
So plan the EAP cable length with the loop! You can even make a double loop if the cable is a bit long.
The first might not be too prominent with 5 MegOhms. But it might happen on the cable from a EAP to preamp, which is the reason I generally prefer to have the preamp close to the bass (but not neccessarily on the bass). No problem as long as the cable doesn't knock somewhere and nobody moves it around or steps onto it.
If you don't have a bow quiver on your Eminence (often difficult on EUBs), put the preamp on the floor, either at the bass or the amp side.
The stuff you might get much easier with the EAP is that knocks, bangs and vibration against something hard is transferred mechanically towards the EAP and the EAP sensor transfers that into an electrical signal, since it is some kind of vibration.
The latter one can be reduced by making a loop with the EAP cable and try to avoid any contact of the cable with the top or tailpiece (except for the jack, that needs to be fixed somewhere).
So plan the EAP cable length with the loop! You can even make a double loop if the cable is a bit long.
The first might not be too prominent with 5 MegOhms. But it might happen on the cable from a EAP to preamp, which is the reason I generally prefer to have the preamp close to the bass (but not neccessarily on the bass). No problem as long as the cable doesn't knock somewhere and nobody moves it around or steps onto it.
If you don't have a bow quiver on your Eminence (often difficult on EUBs), put the preamp on the floor, either at the bass or the amp side.
Ok so in the end, I guess i'm going to try the shortened cable and switchjack...
Do you think that affects sound in anyway better or worse by getting the shorter cable and switchjack?
Do you think that affects sound in anyway better or worse by getting the shorter cable and switchjack?
Bass Facer 22,
I've tried it both ways, with my Walter Woods Amps, or the Headway EDB-2 as the Pre Amp, the difference isn't much of an issue for me. Even using the Ehrlund PreAmp, I have so much avaliable gain and EQ
that it works just fine.
Ric
As for what DoubleMidi just posted, I think I've addressed the practical realities of those issues pretty well. As I said before, the cable is not "electrically" microphonic as a result of high impedance and light shielding. It is mechanically microphonic in that it transmits vibration to the pickup. Mechanical transmission of the vibration into the pickup, of course, ends up as an electrical signal. The direct electrical causes of microphonic tendencies do not occur with the Ehrlund. This is not a matter of theory. It's a matter of practice. Thus, there really turns out to be no practical advantage, in terms of avoiding electrically induced noise and interference, in keeping the pre-amp near the bass. One may, however, wish to do that to have easy access to the controls on the pre-amp.
In practice, the mechanical effects are quite difficult to effectively eliminate by making loops with the original length of the cable. I posted pictures of such an attempt at the beginning of this thread and eventually discussed the pitfalls. A loop with the shortened cable works very well, so long as the loop hangs between the tailpiece and the top of the bass so that it cannot vibrate against either. I posted pics of that as well along with a discussion.
As I mentioned earlier, there are no ill effects to such an arrangement either in terms of the injection of noise or in terms of the "frequency response" of the pickup. Here's my advice (again):
1) Have the cable shortened but kept at a length that is sufficient to position the pickup over a wide range of locations. Make a single loop with the extra length.
2) Terminate the cable with a Switchcraft 121 TS jack mounted on the tailpiece.
3) If you want the pre-amp mounted on the bass, then run a very short cable from the Switchcraft jack to the pre-amp.
4) Run a cable from the bass-mounted pre-amp to your amp.
I always keep my entire rig close by. That's why I run a longer cable from the Switchcraft jack over to my rig where the pre-amp sits on top of my amp. Then I run a short cable from the pre-amp to my amp.
I'm going to put the picture right here again. The jack you see on the tailpiece is not the Switchcraft. I made the change later.
In practice, the mechanical effects are quite difficult to effectively eliminate by making loops with the original length of the cable. I posted pictures of such an attempt at the beginning of this thread and eventually discussed the pitfalls. A loop with the shortened cable works very well, so long as the loop hangs between the tailpiece and the top of the bass so that it cannot vibrate against either. I posted pics of that as well along with a discussion.
As I mentioned earlier, there are no ill effects to such an arrangement either in terms of the injection of noise or in terms of the "frequency response" of the pickup. Here's my advice (again)
:1) Have the cable shortened but kept at a length that is sufficient to position the pickup over a wide range of locations. Make a single loop with the extra length.
2) Terminate the cable with a Switchcraft 121 TS jack mounted on the tailpiece.
3) If you want the pre-amp mounted on the bass, then run a very short cable from the Switchcraft jack to the pre-amp.
4) Run a cable from the bass-mounted pre-amp to your amp.
I always keep my entire rig close by. That's why I run a longer cable from the Switchcraft jack over to my rig where the pre-amp sits on top of my amp. Then I run a short cable from the pre-amp to my amp.
I'm going to put the picture right here again. The jack you see on the tailpiece is not the Switchcraft. I made the change later.
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I am starting to feel either way is fine..
I just want the best way that allows less loss of signal and or helps with not causing knocking sounds and extra noise..
Is that way with the switchjack or not? for the best possible sound and not any possible signal problems..
thats what I'm trying to ask..
I just want the best way that allows less loss of signal and or helps with not causing knocking sounds and extra noise..
Is that way with the switchjack or not? for the best possible sound and not any possible signal problems..
thats what I'm trying to ask..
