Bowzer they might turn down, but I even doubt thatThey'll say they would, but they wouldn't. They'd be on it like flies on dog poop.
I would because I would suck ridiculously at it.
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An Essay, August 2, 2009
- Thread starter jmjbassplayer
- Start date
I would because I would suck ridiculously at it.
I hope we can continue this with more positivity; I certainly take responsibility for my part in that. I think there's some bits of gold in here, especially if we can proceed with mutual respect accompanying all this forthright candor and interesting discourse.
Best,
Justin
Singapore, 2AM
p.s. This also means no more cracks from me about "driftwood", "chin rest", "coffee tables", "nineteen-band EQ", "Pappy Mc Slappy", "Scott Tapsalot", "Fred Shreddington" etc. ad nauseam. (I made some of those up just now.
I, for one, agree with this approach, but I hope it doesn't mean that you will no longer share your actual views, or will overly moderate them, out of fear that someone may find them insulting or have their feelings hurt. If you've gained something from "looking in the mirror", recall what prompted that. If others have found themselves at odds with your unfiltered take on what being a bassist is about, it's on them if they did not react in such a way that they might have gained from it, even if they continued to disagree.
Opinions are not all equally worthy (a favorite retreat of the stupid and lazy), even when they concern aesthetics. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but some of us have better eyes (or ears)--better schooled, more practiced, subtle, experienced, etc.. Worthy opinions and good taste are hard won and the result only of sometimes painful give and take with the world and other people. "Everyone has their own opinion." Wouldn't that be great! Sadly, most people have someone else's opinion (the media's, some church's, their parents') because they are too lazy (or fearful) to do the hard work to develop their own and venture them in the world.
I presume the reason you have your own highly-trafficked forum here is because many of us are interested in your opinions, and for good reason (your body of work and professional accomplishments demonstrate their worth). Please keep them coming and expect us to deal with them like adults, whether we agree with them or not. Otherwise, we've all lost an opportunity to grow.
"The most despicable man is the man who can no longer despise himself." -Nietzsche
"A splinter in the eye is the best magnifying glass." -Adorno
Thank you for this. I appreciate what you're saying, and it's very well said.
I don't think I've back-pedaled away from my initial take on what it means to me, being a bassist. I'm just refining my position and taking out the hyperbole and "clowning", especially for those who would be offended by that. Because that stuff doesn't actually produce any quantifiable/positive results on this forum. It just creates divisiveness...that was my personal realization.
Hence my interest to see how "the other half lives", and attempt to get my ears on some music that would otherwise be completely outside my lexicon.
I don't care if some are at odds with me, that's not the worry. The concern is creating a general divide, or a perception of elitism. I'm gonna like what I'm gonna like. And I will continue to champion my take on things because I'm qualified and mandated to do so here. But I really want to try and make it comfortable for as many as possible. I can't please everybody, but it is satisfying to me personally to try to foster a more open thing, while still being able to deliver some "heat" when I feel like something needs to be expressed.
Best,
JMJ
Justin, have you tried out any so-called 'boutique' basses? Maybe a Roscoe, CB or Stambaugh?
It took me a while to finally get around to trying one, but I've found the merits in owning one. Now, I still have my old Fenders, and always will, but I dig alot of the new builders.
My CB bass is passive, alder/rosewood with 2 single coil pickups. As far as J bass tone, I haven't heard any other bass with such a singing voice up high and a thick, husky voice down low.
I don't know if you'd dig them or not, but if you're ever at a trade show, it might be neat to pick one up.......
It took me a while to finally get around to trying one, but I've found the merits in owning one. Now, I still have my old Fenders, and always will, but I dig alot of the new builders.
My CB bass is passive, alder/rosewood with 2 single coil pickups. As far as J bass tone, I haven't heard any other bass with such a singing voice up high and a thick, husky voice down low.
I don't know if you'd dig them or not, but if you're ever at a trade show, it might be neat to pick one up.......
Haven't checked out many, because it's hard to get around my personal tastes for the visuals first. I like Laklands (I own two), but that's probably not in the category you are describing. I have two Wal basses, as well. I love those. I dunno: The shape, and other visual elements, of a bass can be as personal as one's clothes or one's haircut.
I dig. Some shapes are too radical for me, too. Though, I can appreciate a builder breaking away from the norm.
I generally go for more 'simple' designs, but I do own a few off the wall basses.
Check this out:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I generally go for more 'simple' designs, but I do own a few off the wall basses.
Check this out:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
you know, i think some folks need to realize
if a pro shares pointers and guidelines about being a pro, you listen and learn, if that's what you want (i.e. a similar profession).
justin is a pro, obviously. his experience and accomplishments reinforce the truth of his words. these aren't opinions, even if they're phrased like it - these are the ways to succeed in justin's world. if someone wants to try to earn their way into that world, they'd be wise to pay attention.
however, if someone doesn't, have that pedigree or those accomplishments, they're just sharing their opinion, couched in their subjective perceptions.
take that for what it is.
if a pro shares pointers and guidelines about being a pro, you listen and learn, if that's what you want (i.e. a similar profession).
justin is a pro, obviously. his experience and accomplishments reinforce the truth of his words. these aren't opinions, even if they're phrased like it - these are the ways to succeed in justin's world. if someone wants to try to earn their way into that world, they'd be wise to pay attention.
however, if someone doesn't, have that pedigree or those accomplishments, they're just sharing their opinion, couched in their subjective perceptions.
take that for what it is.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
lol dude! you know they used to be called "electric wood ltd." right?
. they are as coffee table boutique as they get - the uk's answer to alembic. they just got "street" cred because rockstars used em - everyone who's anyone seems to have at least one these days lol.
seriously, though, i hear ya about the aesthetic with boutique instruments. anything built or made with a primary concern toward the aesthetic is going to polarize folks by its nature. that's like... the point.
something to consider, though. folks just don't crank out these instruments to put em on a shelf - they make them specifically for buyers. when you look at custom "coffee table" basses, you are usually looking at something that was built specifically for someone, and using at least some crieteria that they decided on, at least in so far as the aesthetic is concerned. i'd be surprised if anything like that was universally considered "hot".
it's like someone's clothing choices - can't judge the clothes by the man, in effect heh.
on the other hand, all it takes for something to go from the realm of the "dorky" to the realm of the "hip" is for some visible bigtime folks to appropriate the style in question.
wals are a great example. they have always had a non-fender body style, used "coffee table/driftwood" construction, custom hardware and really gung-ho custom electronics.
wal's, however, are hip and cool, because visible, established guys have used them since the late 70's and especially in the 80's. the instrument went beyond the visual statement and was paid attention to for it's musical contribution because the "observers" went beyond their inherent, and largely unfounded" biases and listened with their ears instead of their eyes.
still, on the other hand, i'd be willing to bet a lot of dough there's a lot of sessions you wouldn't bring your wal to, just because of the non-fender aesthetic. so even with wal there's still a lot of unfounded bias to overcome.
unfortunately, wal is a rarity among the custom builders in that they've achieved that level of rock music "pro cred" inspite of their non-fenderhood. there's a lot of builders out there - bill conklin is a great example of this - who make serious, solid, aesthetically pleasing, road-righteous instruments that are largely ignored or trivialized because of this persistent aesthetic bias. i have a _lot_ of conklins, i've never -seen- any instrument that is as just purely well made and road-righteous as any of my basses. i've had straps break and dropped basses off risers, onto drum kits (don't ask) and even onto concrete, and they don't even go out of tune. i've gotten some of my instruments refinished because of wear and yet never had to adjust the neck at all, and this consistency is found in all my instruments.
from a pragmatic standpoint, string count aside, this is the kind of thing a pro needs, i would think, and yet a lot of folks don't even realize this kind of thing is available, or else they just assume that since the instruments obviously had a lot of concern applied toward the aesthetic in their construction that nothing -but- the aesthetic was applicable. (i.e. just because the girl is pretty means she's dumb and undependable). same thing applies to ritter basses - my ritter is ridiculously well made, totally solid and very stable. it looks funky, but sounds fantastic.
it'd be a trip if you did a NIN show with a ritter or conklin bass (they make 4s too heh). jens in particular makes some awesome, quirky stuff and i bet you'd be able to find one that even trent would dig. heh.
Alot of great points, John. I would add that boutique basses can be made as extravagant or as 'mundane' as the customer wants. You can even have someone build a copy of your favorite vintage 60's budget import bass---but have it built for better playability and durability. These are exciting times for bassists. The sky is the limit. I know that Cliff Bordwell is building an 'updated' P bass in his current batch.
I'm not suggesting that Justin shows up on a NIN tour with a CB bass, but....well...how cool would that be?!?!?!
I'm not suggesting that Justin shows up on a NIN tour with a CB bass, but....well...how cool would that be?!?!?!
Oh, and BTW, Justin, thanks for taking time to post. I hope I don't come off as stand-offish by pushing boutique basses and slapping in this thread....I respect your work and aspire to get the level of gigs that you've gotten.
This thread really forced me to evaluate my tonal and proffessional goals. I do agree with alot of what you've said---but sometimes it's good to ask abstract questions.
This thread really forced me to evaluate my tonal and proffessional goals. I do agree with alot of what you've said---but sometimes it's good to ask abstract questions.
It'd be a trip if you did a NIN show with a Wal...do you take a chiropractor on tour, by chance?
Even a 8-notes-only, Fender-style-basses-only guy such as Adam Clayton (from a tiny band called U2) used some Ritter and other fancy-looking basses, right ?
(here it's an Auerswald, and yes, it's plain ugly no matter what).
OK, maybe this is a wrong example, since it's for a period in time when the guys in U2 had ... well ... surprinsing tastes
But i'm sure such a weird shaped bass would fit in some weird NIN videoclip
(here it's an Auerswald, and yes, it's plain ugly no matter what).
OK, maybe this is a wrong example, since it's for a period in time when the guys in U2 had ... well ... surprinsing tastes
But i'm sure such a weird shaped bass would fit in some weird NIN videoclip
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
who's to say what ends are "worthy" or not?
i don't agree with that at all. stupid? no. misdirected maybe? or maybe not, depending on the situation - seemed to work for a lot of guys in the 80s.
further, i'd take issue with your basic premise. i'd posit that it is impossible to achieve "mastery of technique" or gear (whatever "mastery of gear" means - sorta assuming you mean knowledge of tools) without having a sense of the ends to which these techniques and tools will be applied. the term "mastery" sorta implies that.
yeah, when you say "i don't know" then you're basically saying you're ignorant. if you then make a value judgement on the topic, you're compounding your ignorance with bigotry. ignorance is bad. don't advertise it.
oh, and by the way, the concept of a 15 string is based on the 12 that was built specifically for tom petersson of cheap trick. millions of albums were sold with that instrument played on it, and it was tom petersson's dream/vision instrument.
the fact that some folks might not have any recordings available, or have not, despite their best efforts, been able to sell their original music, does not defacto invalidate their musical statements or intentions. surely you don't mean to imply that here.
i was sorta able to follow, while disagreeing, up until here, but this is just an absurd ad-hominem attack based on your own subjective biases and aforementioned self-proclaimed ignorance of the instrument, and by extension, those who play it. (i.e. "i can't understand it, so it must be useless" leads to "since i can't imagine a purpose for that instrument, anyone who plays it is a poser wannabe")
first of all, i know a -lot- of erb players of all levels, from the unknown guys who pm me all the time for advice on how to find strings to guys like al caldwell and jean baudin who i consider personal friends, and i have -never- met or spoken to a single one who put their gear fetish or technical pursuits above their musical vision. in fact, every single one i've met had a musical reason for what they were doing, the pursuit they were engaging in. in fact, in almost all these guys, the vision -predated- the instrument. in other words, the vision was the reason why the instrument came to be.
you might consider the purposes that drove the conceptualisation of those instruments as "unworthy" or whatnot, but that's your opinion, and best applied to your self alone, not someone else or their pursuits.
secondly, i've met -a ton- of posers on 4 string. the biggest posers i've ever met, in fact, were generally die hard "fender p-bass or bust" guys, who tried to cover their complete lack of a good blues groove or a sincere punk feel, for example, with their "looking the part".
of course, since the p-bass is the least common denominator in the bass world, it is not used as an excuse to insult someone for doing something we don't find pleasing, like an erb is.
again, i've never met anyone who spent their hard earned money on a custom erb to turn around and ... do what?
to be honest, it's actually hard to decipher what you are decrying in your post, other than railing at folks for violating you own personal subjective sensibilities, so maybe i have met someone who has done what you so disapprove of. shoot, give my music a listen, i might be one.
seriously, i think if there was any potential positive contribution in this post, it was obfuscated by your obvious bias.
take heart, though. you're certainly not the first person to expend so much effort to rationalize their erb-phobia.
Um, well each of us. Am I going to force my value judgments on you? No, not unless your actions are interfering with me and you refuse to compromise. Do I think you ought to try to make some considered value judgments of your own. Yes. To 'act' without having done so is what I have labeled "stupid", or "mere behavior". Could those judgments, if you've actually bothered to develop them, be improved by considering the informed judgments of others? Yes, almost certainly so. Most all of our judgments would. Are all judgments, therefore, of equal worth? Clearly not.
What do you mean by "work"? There was a lot of rubbish produced in the 80s (as there is now). There was a lot of good stuff produced in the 80s too, hence the need for reflective judgment.
That is not taking issue with my premise but denying my distinction between means and ends. Clearly, I am using technique to refer to acquired skills that may be used as a means to playing a bass. Imagine a sophisticated robot that could play a bass like Victor Wooten but just sits there waiting to be directed as to what to what to play. It could be said to have a mechanical mastery of the required technique, but nothing to express, no ends in mind toward which to apply that technique. Get it?
Ignorance is an unavoidable element of the human condition. It is not "bad", as you put it, but an opportunity to learn. What would life be without it? What is bad, in my view is to be ignorant but to refuse to acknowledge it. I used the word "suspect" to qualify my view as to what 15-string basses were good for, thereby acknowledging that I did not consider my view to be authoritative and inviting correction if it was wrong. Did you correct me, explain what worthy ends a 15-string bass could be used to achieve? No. Perhaps you are as ignorant as I? Have you acknowledged it in any way? That is bad.
I'll ignore the bigotry swipe as it is not remotely relevant here. Speaking for victims of bigotry, I would suggest you reserve such an accusation for appropriate circumstances, lest you serve to trivialize it.
Funny, I never really cared for Cheap Trick. Perhaps that explains it. [More likely, it was the cliched lyrics, uninspired melodies and arrangements, etc.] Besides, lots of even much worse bands have sold millions of records, won grammies, etc.. To appeal to popularity as a measure of worth is in fact a recognized fallacy (an error in reasoning). George Bush was once popular too, he got millions of votes. He was a great president? Or I might cite all the recent common description of Michael Jackson as a "musical genius". James Brown was a musical genius. Michael Jackson danced extremely well and sold lots of records. Does that make him a musical genius? Hell no.
Clearly not. [See remark above.] I was attempting to define who I thought were the target of JMJ's initial criticism--not players such as Wooten or Jaco, but those who mimic their technique something like the sophisticated robots I described above.
An ad-hominem is an irrelevant attack on a person. For example, If I disagreed with your views concerning the best approach to providing universal health care yet didn't criticize those views and made fun of your haircut, your nose, or your 15-string bass instead. I engaged in no such tactics. You might have taken better notes in whatever critical reasoning course you took. (That is also not an ad hominem, in so far as it suggests the source of the (mis)accusation at issue, that is to say, it is not irrelevant. It may be false; perhaps you never took a critical reasoning course. It would still not be an ad hominem.)
That's good to hear. I spoke to my experience, carefully noting that it was just my experience. You have now spoken to yours. I am glad yours has been more positive in this respect, although you indicate nothing as to what the musical vision was that called forth such instruments and leave me to accept that there was (is) such a thing on faith.
But my point was that it is unclear to me (and clearly others too) that there even is a purpose (other than to impress oneself and others with the spectacle of playing them) for these instruments. If it is what I had suspected, then I will stick to my judgment and defend its general relevance beyond my self. To do otherwise would be to adopt an untenable relativism, which is only the preserve of cowards and lazy people who don't really want to develop actual opinions and subject them to scrutiny, their own or anyone else's. Now, if I am wrong, and there are worthy ends to which the instruments in question may put, I remain in need of enlightenment. You, however, have provided me none.
I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't doubt that has been your experience. Again, I spoke to my experience and now you have to yours. Notice, I did not accuse you of anything disreputable for having done so, however.
I'm not sure what this has to do with me. I just recently bought my first Fender in over 30 years (my very first bass, bought in the 7th grade, was a '72 jazz I immediately swapped for a '73 Rickenbacker). The recent Fender is a Jazz bass, however, and I quickly put a graphite neck on it and swapped out the pickups. I have never owned a p-bass. I'm not ripping them (I absolutely love the sound of Bruce Thomas' P-bass on the Attractions recordings, for example) and I wouldn't mind if someone gave one to me, but I am not eager to sound like everyone else either (not even Bruce Thomas).
And "do what?" That is my question exactly. If there is a good answer, I'd still like to hear it.
to be honest, it's actually hard to decipher what you are decrying in your post, other than railing at folks for violating you own personal subjective sensibilities, so maybe i have met someone who has done what you so disapprove of. shoot, give my music a listen, i might be one.
I am glad you were finally honest, but given your lack of comprehension of my post (emphasis on "your"), I am not sure why you regarded yourself as fit to respond to it in such detail.
seriously, i think if there was any potential positive contribution in this post, it was obfuscated by your obvious bias.
take heart, though. you're certainly not the first person to expend so much effort to rationalize their erb-phobia.
I am not afraid of any basses, although I do prefer it when some of them are not around [meant to be a silly rip-off from a joke from the movie "Barfly"]. Seriously, I so admire JMJ's response to this thread in the "Music tips for me, please." thread that I am going to try out some of the music suggested to him there. I am not completely unaware of the sort of music that most have suggested, and what I have heard previously, I really, really disliked, but who knows, perhaps I have missed out on something really good. I did Youtube Jauqo. Although it isn't exactly my kind of thing, I didn't find it worthless either. I might even grow to dig it. The technique is certainly marvelous and, I'll say it again, if he and others find that it allows them to create music that moves them or allows them to express things of worth to them and others, they should keep it up.
Tell me where to find yours and I'll give it an honest listen. Perhaps it will speak more coherently for your point than this text.
I enjoy Dr. Seuss as much as I enjoy Dostoyevsky. I wanted to be Bill Shakespeare in junior high. I have learned something from all of them. So it is with the vast list you included, J. Added to my "woodshed" list.
Listening to James Brown and The Beatles humbles me. How could something so simple be so hard to really, really own?
Matt
Ding ding ding ding!!
Yes. Maybe I should have just written something as sublime and simple as THAT. Well done.
JMJ
So why do I have to audition to get into a college? Why do I have to be a bass prodigy to get into Berklee?
Hm. I'm not quite sure.
Being devil's advocate, perhaps it's because their program is rather intense, to the extent that getting on board simply requires that students already have a foothold in relatively advanced harmonic concepts, significant physical skill, etc.
JMJ
Being devil's advocate, perhaps it's because their program is rather intense, to the extent that getting on board simply requires that students already have a foothold in relatively advanced harmonic concepts, significant physical skill, etc.
JMJ
You don't have to be a prodigy to get into music school. You do have to have some basic understanding of theory and technique. But, it comes back to my original point about taste. If someone has bad taste, then it doesn't matter what working theoretical knowledge they know, or how good their technique is. But, someone with good taste can benefit greatly from the knowledge or, in some small cases, the gear (Jimmy Haslip or John Pettitucci's use of the six string for example.)
In the end, taste is all that matters. You have to know how to apply the concepts that you learn in music school. I think people are against the quest for knowledge because they are afraid that 'too much theory ruins the groove.' Theory doesn't ruin the groove. Thinking about theory does. I've posted this alot, but the goal of theory is to NOT THINK about it when you play.
People skim the surface--then when they apply it, it sounds mechanical--then they say it hurts their feel. Well, of course it does--if you don't take the time to learn it correctly. It's like a studio compressor. I don't know how to tastefully use one. But that isn't the compressors fault. That is my fault. I understand the merit in them. I could easily post about how compressors suck the life out of music. And it would be true--but only because people don't know how to use them--or don't use them tastefully.
I think I went off on a tangent there......
In the end, I understand that not everyone needs to understand theory or needs to work on technique. But, my main point is---groove and knowledge can coexist.
