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An Essay, August 2, 2009
- Thread starter jmjbassplayer
- Start date
jeff schmidt
no longer red carded, but my butt is still sore.
Aww come'on! It's got everything a TB'r could want. A big dumb fender. groove/pocket. tight performance in service of the song. Catchy as all get out. And a tutu! Total win!
Well, that makes you wrong twice.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
heh. my wife thinks he has nice legs. lol.
is that a fender, btw? didn't know they made 8's.
I buy parts of what you're saying, Jeff, and then I don't. If you look purely at the artistic expression side of things, that's easy. All you have to do for that is have an idea. Getting people to pay you for it is another matter entirely, and if that's what you're looking to do, then there are some things you might want to do to make yourself more hireable. No different than telling your kid that if he wants a job at a restaurant that he better have clean hands and wear something nice.
Anyone can pursue an artistic vision and not make any money at it, which is usually what happens with 99.99% of people and their artistic visions. And there's nothing wrong with that at all if the person is happy. And of the ones who manage to get paid for their artistic visions, then they're subject to marketplace demands as well. So if we're using Trent as an example, it's highly doubtful that he could act upon his artistic vision to do an album of Barry Manilow songs without screwing up what's he's built by doing very un-Manilow-like music. So even someone as independent as Trent still can't just follow every cockamamie idea that pops in his head. He has way more leeway than most, but still...
As for being a sideman, you give its role in music extremely short shrift and I don't dig that. Many artists we hear on the radio today became "artists" by way of being sidemen and doing their own thing on their own time. Many sidemen are remembered forever simply by injecting their vision for their instrument into another person's songwriting vision. Many bands have been ruined by the leader thinking of band members as interchangeable. Bruce Springsteen canning the E Street Band en masse is probably the best known example. How many people talk about guys like Miles and how much his different bands brought to his vision?
The way I see it, you can approach being a sideman as a job or as an art unto itself. Those who see it as an art unto itself elevate themselves and the music they play, plus they get paid. Those who see it as a job just get paid and they bring nothing to the table and take nothing from it besides the money.
If I may toot my own horn, in my line of the sideman world, which is backing up oldies shows, I'm considered easily replaceable. A local guy who would work for a quarter of what I get is available in every state in the country. But I and the guys in my band get flown around the world to back up oldies shows because we treat it as a respected art to be a sideman and we don't punch clocks or complain about the workload (OK, we complain about the workload now and then, but who doesn't?). And we can back up a lot of different artists and make it all sound respectful to the recordings while putting our own unique take on it...I find that pretty artistic myself and I'm pretty proud of it, and if that ain't art to you, sorry.
Would I rather be the central figure and write the songs and rake in the dough and boss everyone around? Who wouldn't? But I get to boss enough people around as a sideman to make me happy
+1 and congrats on the Wanda gig. That lil Lady can STILL wail. What's your band's name if you don't mind? Sounds like you guys are doing VERY well for yourselves.
LilRay
Commercial User
- Dec 27, 2007
- 4,166
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- Owner: Cockeyed Cow Custom Leathercraft
Damn Justin, You had a lot on your mind. Is the road wearing that rough on you?
Having said that I agree wholeheartedly with what your saying. Though I've got a feeling it will be lost on a lot of folks.IMO the industry is losing out on real musicians in favor of pretty "Lip synching" folks who fake knowing how to play an instrument while backing tracks play through the sound system(ala Milli Vanilli).
Real music and musicians isn't sought out anymore no where near at the same level of "American Idol" type fame.
Taking up an instrument and learning your craft requires commitment that not a lot of people especially younger kids are willing to take on. (Geez I sound old at 31
)God Bless, Ray
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
It can definetly be done.
All one has to do is use creative intuition and have the heart to not care what the none believers or those who can't see beyond 4 strings have to say.
It's attitudes like that that keep music in the dark ages and it's a poison that can and I'm sure have stunted the growth of some artist who believe that it really is bad and not kool to be true to yourself or your vision.
How many clones does it take for musicians to see that being one is part of the great down fall of musical individuality and the future of what music was intended for in the first place?
I use 4(standard and none standard),5,6,8(none doubled) and 15(tripled 5 string) string basses and various fretless basses.
I consider myself a sideman and an artist who happens to have my own projects going and it works for me.
Next time your friends are siting around joking about some guy with more than 4 strings,ask them to read the attached link.
All of us who use more than 4 strings really do know our role in the big scheme of things.
Invalid Link Removed
OTOH, someone who's looking to play a 7-string or more probably isn't looking to guys like Justin for validation in the first place, so I think the damage is minimal. Besides, who knows...the next big bass player in rock could be a guy who plays a 7-string strapped up to his chin, and we could all think he's the coolest thing going and all the ERB'ers could have the last laugh. Claypool could have done it but he sold you all down the river for a 4 in the end
I think that rather than bum out over what's considered acceptable with string count, I think bass players should actually be rejoicing that a 5 or 6-string isn't looked upon as a complete oddity anymore, and is actually accepted and welcome in some circles. You can get a $200 6-string now...how much more accepted can it get? We need to be looking at the positives here...bass players get away with a lot more than they used to. OK, not all musicians like them, but not all musicians like Fender/Ampeg, either. Whatever....that's my attitude anymore. I play the gear I like, I'll be happy to play gear I don't like if it pays enough, and best of luck to everyone else. If your music holds up, you can play anything. Can't say I ever walked out on a band due to gear choices.
Hmmm.. Interesting thread.. Subscribing to see where this goes..
I definitely have some of my own opinions on this..
I definitely have some of my own opinions on this..
ahh heck.. I'll go ahead and add my $0.02 since we are all having a confessional
Ive seen a lot of poop throwing going on talkbass in the past year or so that didnt exist (or least not as blatantly) before. Funny thing is, Ive seen most of this happen in the Ask A Pro forums. You have artists who knock of those who play multi stringed driftwood, you have those who knock on others for playing signature licks that make them cringe when they hear it, you have those who only play a certain brand of bass and talk about how its the bees knees and nothing else is better (until they are endorsed by someone else).
The part that cracks me up though is how some people blindly follow the Pro and take their word as gospel. Nothing more than sheep. This is where the problem is! I totally respect the opinions of all of the pros on here but I take the information, pick and choose what applies to me, and put it in my bag of tricks. I dont say Hey, Justin said it so thats what its meant to be. Hey, Janek plays a Fodera, sings all of solos and wears a hat at every show, so thats what I need to be doing!. We dont need another Janek or Justin (or Jaco, or Pattitucci, or Berlin, or Wooten, etc ).. Theyve already filled those shoes nicely.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, when it comes down to it, who gives a sh!t? With all do respect to the die-hard 4 stringers, it easy to knock the 7+ string basses made out of wood from a tree that 3 endangered monkeys lived in. Likewise, its easy for the 7+ stringers to say that all the 4 bangers playing jazzes are just trying to be Jaco. But, why does it matter to you? Your bass is in your hands, whether its a $100 SX or a $15,000 Alembic, its your job to speak through it. Not Justins, not Janeks, not Jaquos, not Jeffs job. Its YOUR job. Once your start bitching about other peoples equipment or what they choose to play, you are being judgmental of someones voice.
Ive definitely heard my share of slap-wanking. Hell, Ive DONE my fair share of it. Its not my bag but if thats what makes YOU happy, that is all that matters. No matter if you are playing 1 quarter note every 2 bars, or slapping the strings until your fingers bleed, its what YOU have to say.
There is one thing that has bothered me though that I do want to address. The fact that if you show up at a session with anything other than a jazz or P-bass, the producer wont even hear you. Ill preface this by saying I TOTALLY understand that it is the way it works. But, I think its total bullsh!t. The amount of close-mindedness that still exists in regards to equipment is unbelievable, especially with producers (or just recording situations). In the broader picture, I think that is the reason why radio play music is generally in the pooper. People are too afraid to try something new and get rid of the security blankets. Hell, Ive noticed MYSELF that Ive been hired for certain groups because I play upright, despite the fact that I feel my electric playing is better. They want to SEE and upright. Its a total crock and thats why, in my opinion, music is spiraling backwards because peoples voices are being stifled or ridiculed.
Im not knocking Justin because, when it comes down to it, I think we are saying the same thing. Do your own thing, take the steps necessary to get where YOU want to get musically, and screw everything else. But this poop throwing about what EQUIPMENT you play, rather than what MUSIC you play, is just old and worn out.
</off soap box>
Ive seen a lot of poop throwing going on talkbass in the past year or so that didnt exist (or least not as blatantly) before. Funny thing is, Ive seen most of this happen in the Ask A Pro forums. You have artists who knock of those who play multi stringed driftwood, you have those who knock on others for playing signature licks that make them cringe when they hear it, you have those who only play a certain brand of bass and talk about how its the bees knees and nothing else is better (until they are endorsed by someone else).
The part that cracks me up though is how some people blindly follow the Pro and take their word as gospel. Nothing more than sheep. This is where the problem is! I totally respect the opinions of all of the pros on here but I take the information, pick and choose what applies to me, and put it in my bag of tricks. I dont say Hey, Justin said it so thats what its meant to be. Hey, Janek plays a Fodera, sings all of solos and wears a hat at every show, so thats what I need to be doing!. We dont need another Janek or Justin (or Jaco, or Pattitucci, or Berlin, or Wooten, etc ).. Theyve already filled those shoes nicely.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, when it comes down to it, who gives a sh!t? With all do respect to the die-hard 4 stringers, it easy to knock the 7+ string basses made out of wood from a tree that 3 endangered monkeys lived in. Likewise, its easy for the 7+ stringers to say that all the 4 bangers playing jazzes are just trying to be Jaco. But, why does it matter to you? Your bass is in your hands, whether its a $100 SX or a $15,000 Alembic, its your job to speak through it. Not Justins, not Janeks, not Jaquos, not Jeffs job. Its YOUR job. Once your start bitching about other peoples equipment or what they choose to play, you are being judgmental of someones voice.
Ive definitely heard my share of slap-wanking. Hell, Ive DONE my fair share of it. Its not my bag but if thats what makes YOU happy, that is all that matters. No matter if you are playing 1 quarter note every 2 bars, or slapping the strings until your fingers bleed, its what YOU have to say.
There is one thing that has bothered me though that I do want to address. The fact that if you show up at a session with anything other than a jazz or P-bass, the producer wont even hear you. Ill preface this by saying I TOTALLY understand that it is the way it works. But, I think its total bullsh!t. The amount of close-mindedness that still exists in regards to equipment is unbelievable, especially with producers (or just recording situations). In the broader picture, I think that is the reason why radio play music is generally in the pooper. People are too afraid to try something new and get rid of the security blankets. Hell, Ive noticed MYSELF that Ive been hired for certain groups because I play upright, despite the fact that I feel my electric playing is better. They want to SEE and upright. Its a total crock and thats why, in my opinion, music is spiraling backwards because peoples voices are being stifled or ridiculed.
Im not knocking Justin because, when it comes down to it, I think we are saying the same thing. Do your own thing, take the steps necessary to get where YOU want to get musically, and screw everything else. But this poop throwing about what EQUIPMENT you play, rather than what MUSIC you play, is just old and worn out.
</off soap box>
You raise a good point. I'm all for making the 'producer' happy, but maybe there is too much emphasis on the notion of producer. Of course, guys like George Martin and Creed Taylor had something gong on. But when you really look at the track record of today's 'hit-makers,' they aren't really making anything substanial that is going to last past next month--forget about being timeless. Obviously, playing a 7 string in the studio isn't going to automatically change music for the better. But, I think that being open minded to the idea means being open minded about other ideas. As long as producers are running the show, then we will continue to follow the same formula. That's the way it goes, though, I guess.
In the end, life is way to short to worry about what other people think of my gear. I play what makes me happy. (Which is pretty conservative gear comparibaly)
Once again....for me bass is as much about FUNCTION as it is an INSTRUMENT. As bassists we serve most often as the FUNCTION of the bass in a piece of music. There are obviously folks like Wooten, Claypool, and the likes and they're outstanding artists doing their thing, but they still serve the function of BASS the majority of the time in their compositions.
When I think of the function of bass in a song I'm thinking about harmonic range and rhythmic placement in the piece. Most of the time the bass function resides in the support role...and that's just how it is. Play guitar if you want to "step out front" it's far more within the role/function of that instrument...if your "guitar" happens to have the range of a bass as well then maybe you've found your niche
There is immense beauty and art in a simply played line that provides to support the art of the song. There can also be great "art" in a bassist that steps forward and stretches the "function" of his/her instrument, but in reality that happens VERY rarely in music most folks would consider "timeless." Which leads back to Justin's OP...about creating "timeless" art and something that people (not just musicians) want to listen to. This is something it's taken me some time to embrace...the fact that to me it is far more important to create art and music that can be enjoyed by everyone....not just musicians.
I have to admit that I'm a far better drummer than a bassist, and I feel that playing bass gives me a really unique view of both functions in the art. Just like I wouldn't want my drummer to step out of his/her role and fill every 4 bars or start playing double bass riffs when it's not called for I don't want the bassist to stop providing a FOUNDATION because he/she has the same range as a piano and wants to utilize it.
When I think of the function of bass in a song I'm thinking about harmonic range and rhythmic placement in the piece. Most of the time the bass function resides in the support role...and that's just how it is. Play guitar if you want to "step out front" it's far more within the role/function of that instrument...if your "guitar" happens to have the range of a bass as well then maybe you've found your niche
There is immense beauty and art in a simply played line that provides to support the art of the song. There can also be great "art" in a bassist that steps forward and stretches the "function" of his/her instrument, but in reality that happens VERY rarely in music most folks would consider "timeless." Which leads back to Justin's OP...about creating "timeless" art and something that people (not just musicians) want to listen to. This is something it's taken me some time to embrace...the fact that to me it is far more important to create art and music that can be enjoyed by everyone....not just musicians.
I have to admit that I'm a far better drummer than a bassist, and I feel that playing bass gives me a really unique view of both functions in the art. Just like I wouldn't want my drummer to step out of his/her role and fill every 4 bars or start playing double bass riffs when it's not called for I don't want the bassist to stop providing a FOUNDATION because he/she has the same range as a piano and wants to utilize it.
I'm not saying that bassists should be soloing all the time. Support the song first and foremost, yes. I just saying that there is NOTHING wrong with learning how to solo---or slap---or whatever frowned upon technique du jour there may be. I think that a bassist should be prepared for as many situations as possible. For me, I solo on at least half of the tunes in any given set. On my bandstand, the drummer might throw in some rythmic counterpoint at just the right moment.
Some of us have been playing for a long long time. What are we supposed to work on in that time? You can't REHEARSE feel. You can't practice playing for the song. Part of my daily practise routine involves soloing and slapping. That doesn't mean that I slap on every tune. It only means that I am prepared to slap if the lead sheet prompts me to. It seems crazy to dismiss entire techniques because the kid at GC sounds bad doing it. Slap bass can be extremely tasty. Bass solos can be extremely melodic. Soloing doesn't mean 'shredding.'
Alot of guys come to mind. Jamerson, McCartney, Stanley Clarke, Marcus, Entwhistle, Squier, Jaco, Geddy Lee, Larry Graham, Louis Johnson etc. I would call their music timeless. Alot of the guys who are considered 'the greats' have pushed the boundary of what is possible on the instrument.
I don't think a preference by producers for a Fender has to do with bias/ignorance of the bassworld/etc. Those basses sound amazing on tape for just about every kind of music, and chances are that a TON of classic recordings that we all grew up on, and that especially producers are used to hearing as a reference for 'what bass sounds like' is a Fender.
Play whatever makes you happy, but in the context of the world in which JMJ travels, ie 'The Big Time', you simply don't need an ERB. Heck, you could probably get by with 3 strings. I just don't see how an ERB soloist is in a position to say that a die-hard 4-string player is limiting themselves, or vice versa, how that same Fender-wielding purists should be in a position to dictate what kind of axe you need on a gig with a lot of soloing.
Play whatever makes you happy, but in the context of the world in which JMJ travels, ie 'The Big Time', you simply don't need an ERB. Heck, you could probably get by with 3 strings. I just don't see how an ERB soloist is in a position to say that a die-hard 4-string player is limiting themselves, or vice versa, how that same Fender-wielding purists should be in a position to dictate what kind of axe you need on a gig with a lot of soloing.
LilRay
Commercial User
- Dec 27, 2007
- 4,166
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- Disclosures
- Owner: Cockeyed Cow Custom Leathercraft
I agree. I play all Fender 4's now, but I've considered an ERB to expand what I "hear". Those that aren't in a soloist position can still have a multi stringed ERB and hold a pocket/groove. It seems crazy to say that a guy who has a 5+ string Bass has to play oddly compared to the same player with a 4. Doesn't matter if it's got 16 strings, you're still playing the notes, and could play everything on two strings all night if you chose. The thing that intrigues me with ERB is economy of motion. Same notes less movement.
If Fender were all there is in Bass, it'd be quite boring. But to insult anyone for choosing either direction is ignorant, even of the "professionals" in the "Big Time"
.To me it'd be a matter of "learn how to use your tools" .
God Bless, Ray
I think some of you guys are missing the point - to my understanding, we started talking about what steps to take as a bassist, not skipping the basics (or, more accurately, the vitals). Then we rode off on our pet horse tangent and started discussing how to get hired - according to Justin, in the LA scene, you won't get taken seriously with anything more than a five banger, but your need to bring a four banger too.
What I'm trying to achieve is to show that this isn't a discussion about releasing the artist within, rather a discussion about being hired and making money as a sideman - neither is it a discussion about being original and saying '**** everyone else', because, again, then you won't be hired!
[/end of attempting the steer thread back on track - now continue...]
What I'm trying to achieve is to show that this isn't a discussion about releasing the artist within, rather a discussion about being hired and making money as a sideman - neither is it a discussion about being original and saying '**** everyone else', because, again, then you won't be hired!
[/end of attempting the steer thread back on track - now continue...]
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Every thing mentioned in this thread is related to the original post.
I am very familiar with the LA scene and it is what it is.
It dosen't bother my vision. My visions bottom line is to be a professional musician(which I am).
If that means being a sideman or a solo artist it's all fine with me because I'm going to be what I'm meant to be any way.
But there is a level of snobbery in this industry and it's interesting when most who have so much snobbery feel that what they say works and it is the only way that it will work.
Well it does when a cookie cutter philosophy is indeed followed.
I think Vanessa Williams for what ever reason,allowing Al Caldwell to be on stage with her, playing his 9 ,11 and multi stringed MIDI basses says a lot about her as a person as well as the artist that she is..
Just think if more artist and producers especially the snobs opened there minds a little bit and allowed that bass player to be themselves and at least trusted them enough to use the instrument that the bassist feels would work best for the job. There would probably be a lot of great music flourishing these days.
Artist and producers do not always know what is best for a particular song or project.
People need to understand that and stop kissing so much behind.
The great body of work that Chuck Rainey gave us with Steely Dan did not come from Becker or Fagen writing those bass lines but allowing Chuck to write his own bass lines.
I am very familiar with the LA scene and it is what it is.
It dosen't bother my vision. My visions bottom line is to be a professional musician(which I am).
If that means being a sideman or a solo artist it's all fine with me because I'm going to be what I'm meant to be any way.
But there is a level of snobbery in this industry and it's interesting when most who have so much snobbery feel that what they say works and it is the only way that it will work.
Well it does when a cookie cutter philosophy is indeed followed.
I think Vanessa Williams for what ever reason,allowing Al Caldwell to be on stage with her, playing his 9 ,11 and multi stringed MIDI basses says a lot about her as a person as well as the artist that she is..
Just think if more artist and producers especially the snobs opened there minds a little bit and allowed that bass player to be themselves and at least trusted them enough to use the instrument that the bassist feels would work best for the job. There would probably be a lot of great music flourishing these days.
Artist and producers do not always know what is best for a particular song or project.
People need to understand that and stop kissing so much behind.
The great body of work that Chuck Rainey gave us with Steely Dan did not come from Becker or Fagen writing those bass lines but allowing Chuck to write his own bass lines.
Is it REALLY necessary though with her music? Is he really using the range that those instruments offer to the benefit of her songs? Have to admit that I haven't heard him with her, but seems like crushing a fly with a monster truck....
Do I think pop music would change "for the better" if bassists were using more strings and techniques? No.
Yes...Chuck played some of the most musical and funky bass lines recorded with "The Dan" and I'm sure he would have played them the same regardless of the instrument...and all of the bass lines serve the song. I'm sure if he came in with some "artistic and original" S*&T that didn't serve the songs they wouldn't have kept them in the recordings.
Make the music for everyone....not just musicians.
This is exactly what I was trying to talk about in my post. I'm not in the "industry" as much as other since I do this for fun but I have noticed there is a sense of "well its worked for the past XX years. Why change it now?" when it comes to production in today's music.
There is a lot of talk about making music timeless. Maybe this is just my perception but what classic music available today has achieved being "timeless" by following the mold of all others before it? Or, even better, using the mold of those before but adding their own voice? I'd be willing to bet there are HUNDREDS of bands today you can hear on the radio that, if you take out the vocals and lyrics, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. This is because music has been dumbed down not only by artists but by producers. "Hey, this band plays power chords, fender basses, and schecter guitars and has made millions. Lets follow the same model".. Then, 3 years later, you never hear from them again.
The notion of fostering new ideas, using new approaches and techniques, has gone out of the window in popular music. Can you believe there was a time that Zappa and even Weather Report got radio play?!?! Try to play that now on the radio between a twin spin of your favorite boy-band.
Attitudes like saying 7+ string basses equates to wanking on driftwood or that if you show up at a recording with anything other than a P-Bass will get your laughed at (true as it may be) is going to shove music back into the dark ages and it'll stay there until people are willing to break the mold.
There is a time and place to use any instrument and its up to the artist to choose wisely which is appropriate for their situation. But, if acceptance of new ideas and concepts doesnt make a rebound, we might as well throw in the towel and press the "Play" button on our drum machine.
Maybe from now on, recording studio should have a window where the producer can't see outside of the booth. Maybe that'll fix the biased when it comes to brands
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