An Essay, August 2, 2009

[jk3]

i just wish i could convey all this insight to my m***^rf**ki*g drummer...
also, thanks justin for the heads up on the stylus article...awesome.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Is it REALLY necessary though with her music? Is he really using the range that those instruments offer to the benefit of her songs? Have to admit that I haven't heard him with her, but seems like crushing a fly with a monster truck....

Well it has been proven for so many years over and over(more than a decade) than Al Calldwell using the basses that he uses with Vanessa has not hurt him in any way nor has it phased her one bit.

One can thank her for just letting Al be Al as long as he's bringing to the table what she needs and expects from him.

Do I think pop music would change "for the better" if bassists were using more strings and techniques? No.

The evidence is strong that pop music today is one of the ingredients that's hurting pop music. Pop music is doing it to itself.

Yes...Chuck played some of the most musical and funky bass lines recorded with "The Dan" and I'm sure he would have played them the same regardless of the instrument...and all of the bass lines serve the song. I'm sure if he came in with some "artistic and original" S*&T that didn't serve the songs they wouldn't have kept them in the recordings.

Make the music for everyone....not just musicians.

Make music for self first and allow that to be the motivation behind musical creation and then share it with as many people as one can.

Kyle you missed the point. I was not saying nor do I feel that because a bassist wants to use more tha4 strings that they should in every situation.


I am not a ERB flag waver. They fit where they are allowed to fit.


The point I was making is based of of the attitudes,snobs and the prejudice that some artist and producers have towards such a instrument.

One would be surprised what a open mind could bring to most musical situations.



Slightly off topic but definitely on point.

http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress....g-it-a-day-politics-has-ruined-the-music-biz/

 

[Kyle_Poehling]

Well it has been proven for so many years over and over(more than a decade) than Al Calldwell using the basses that he uses with Vanessa has not hurt him in any way nor has it phased her one bit.

One can thank her for just letting Al be Al as long as he's bringing to the table what she needs and expects from him.




The evidence is strong that pop music today is one of the ingredients that's hurting pop music. Pop music is doing it to itself.








Make music for self first and allow that to be the motivation behind musical creation and then share it with as many people as one can.

Kyle you missed the point. I was not saying nor do I feel that because a bassist wants to use more tha4 strings that they should in every situation.


I am not a ERB flag waver. They fit where they are allowed to fit.


The point I was making is based of of the attitudes,snobs and the prejudice that some artist and producers have towards such a instrument.

One would be surprised what a open mind could bring to most musical situations.



Slightly off topic but definitely on point.

http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress....g-it-a-day-politics-has-ruined-the-music-biz/

Agreed....guess we're basically saying the same thing

 

[shriekback]

Very interesting thread. If I could venture to try to clarify the central point, however...

It seems to me that JMJ's original purpose was to remind us (and many among us here DO need to be so reminded) that playing the bass must be a means to an end larger than playing the bass. Those ends could be artistic, social, professional, etc., but if one is not acting with some such in mind, one is not even 'acting' in the proper sense, but merely behaving. That applies to everything, including playing the bass. (Think of all the folks out there working in all manner of ways to make money, rarely if ever stopping to consider what they might use that money for, that is, those who have made making money itself their purpose--same problem, different context.)

The intended recipient of JMJ's reminder, or so it seems to me, was anyone who is concerned with either gear or technique without examining what their ends are, whether those ends are worthy, and whether the means they have chosen will serve them well. We will all disagree about the worthiness of various ends (I, for one example, can barely stand to listen to a guitar solo anymore, much less a bass solo), but we should all agree that mastery of more and more complex technique and gear without any sense of the ends to which such mastery is to be put, other than the display of mastery, is literally stupid, that is unreflective behavior rather than human action, irrespective of how difficult it may be or how few among us could do it. I don't know what unique ends (worthy or otherwise) mastery of a 15-string bass could be put to--perhaps I'm ignorant. I am sure it is difficult and very few of us could do it. The same could be said, however, for eating a toaster. Both might make some kind of spectacle, but I suspect little else.

JMJ was careful enough to express appreciation for what the likes of Jaco and Wooten did and do. His target is clearly not them, but those who attempt to mimic their technique and the gear, but yet apparently serve no "transcendent purpose" (what I'm simply calling an "end") in doing so.

There's no snobbery in suggesting that one should start with a worthy purpose, work (master technique, acquire necessary gear, etc.) to realize it, and not confuse the latter with the former. The most common victims of such a confusion among bass players are definitely the ERB guys. C'mon, that's fair (remember the Wooten counter example--the not exclusive exception proving this rule). There may also be numbers of players, missing what is essential in JMJ's own example, who grow a big 'fro, strap on a modded Jaguar or vintage Starfire, and amass a mountain of fuzz pedals--thinking they're now thereby artists. I don't encounter them as much, but if they're out there, they could benefit from the same advice.

Regards to all.

 

[JimmyM]

...but we should all agree that mastery of more and more complex technique and gear without any sense of the ends to which such mastery is to be put, other than the display of mastery, is literally stupid, that is unreflective behavior rather than human action, irrespective of how difficult it may be or how few among us could do it. I don't know what unique ends (worthy or otherwise) mastery of a 15-string bass could be put to--perhaps I'm ignorant. I am sure it is difficult and very few of us could do it. The same could be said, however, for eating a toaster. Both might make some kind of spectacle, but I suspect little else....

Well now...so you suspect there's no use for one since you have no use for one? OK, but having seen Jauqo play a 15-string before, I can tell you that you'd be wrong about that. The music I saw him play with one is pretty outside, but it's good stuff.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

but we should all agree that mastery of more and more complex technique and gear without any sense of the ends to which such mastery is to be put, other than the display of mastery, is literally stupid, that is unreflective behavior rather than human action, irrespective of how difficult it may be or how few among us could do it. I don't know what unique ends (worthy or otherwise) mastery of a 15-string bass could be put to

If some thing doesn't work for you or maybe you just don't understand all areas of an individuals expressionism dosen't make it a bad thing.


Some artist prefer to be followers while some don't even have a clue what a follower is suppose to do.


Do you think that you could be a slight problem within in you and not the expressionist who may not even know that you exist?



Good thing you're not the minister of art

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Bowzer's Rock And Roll Party at the Mohegan Sun Arena in Uncasville, CT tomorrow (Friday) night at 8! (sorry for the cheap plug, Justin...you can edit it out if it's NA).

Man- JimmyM was playing five minutes from my house and I missed it. I could've thrown french fries at you!


This is a great thread for all of the ideas coming out of it. Justin's original post is very interesting to me because it is almost contradictory in that it puts a big emphasis on listening to a broad range of music and musicians to learn to create parts that serve the song, but then also seems to give the impression that serving the song as a bassist requires a certain type of playing or sound. I don't believe he thinks that way because of the many unique parts I've heard him play, but there is an emphasis on traditional roles.

I've been in the mindset that a bassist should not be thought of as having to fit a role in music. I can blame Bill Dickens for that- I got his old 80s instructional videos a couple weeks after I started playing, and after seeing him play a solo improvised chordal piece on a 6-string, I thought, "Why don't more bassists do this?" Bassists are usually thought of as a utility that songwriters use. "Serve the song" is quoted all the time here. Unfortunately, a lot of guys take that to mean "play simply" or "always groove." That frame of mind presupposes that even when bassists write the songs themselves, they have a certain job to fill. If this frame of mind was forced on guitarists, horn players, and pianists, we probably wouldn't have the music of guys like Sonny Sharrock, Zorn, or Thelonius Monk now. They went beyond serving the song and served the musical community by creating new unique music. I'd say if anything that we need more players out there like that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with filling out a traditional bass role. But there's a zillion guys out there that can thump out a great deep groove. How many can create a dissonant tune using just the highest five frets of their D and G strings that is still enjoyable to listen to? Would the world be better off for having another guy that can rock steady eighth notes, or would it be better for having a bassist who was locked in a cave with a 9-string bass when he was a toddler and had never heard any music or talking at all to influence how he learned to play the instrument? If we don't like the outcome, we're none the worse for it, but it could create something different, which is what we need more of.

There are tons of other musicians who take the approach of creating something new and unique to the point where we don't assign a role to guitarists, pianists, etc. If you see a guy holding a guitar, he could play some country chicken pickin', a beautiful rendition of Autumn Leaves, the solo from Freebird, or a dissonant yet catchy Thurston Moore part, or a completely noise-based music, any of which to be considered as a song in whole, and we wouldn't be surprised by any of it. But so few bassists have worked to expand the idea of what bass can do, both due to the youth of the instrument and the dogma placed around playing outside of the norm on it, that the same kinda of versatility is often frowned upon, and that's unfortunate. Justin's bass part on Tori Amos' "Cruel" certainly fits the song and sounds great, but I would say that it doesn't take on the "role" of a bass at all. I guess my point is that you can play way out parts that don't resemble a typical bass role at all and still serve a song. If more producers had the attitude of "give me something different than what a normal bassist would play," there'd be a lot more music to listen to. I might start listening to the radio again

 

[JimmyM]

Well bass players have to make their own opportunities to expand the role, too. You can't hijack someone else's opportunity. Not if you want them to keep paying you. Sometimes you just have to get your own thing going.

And save those fries for next time...we come back in January with a doo-wop show. Now you want to talk about getting held back? Try playing doo wop!

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Gotta chime in again, even though I said I wouldn't.

Dear me, my big mouth started a bit of a sh**storm, didn't it? I think my initial message post was not only not written as clearly as it could have been, but has also been morphed into something else by the ebb and flow of replies in this thread.

Truly, the essence of my posts (forget about the hyperbole for a minute) is really about people who really seem to willingly and consciously forego basics ("vitals", as one put it), groove and a useful musical bibliography (my pet cause) for the sake of athletics or one-upmanship, at the extreme end of the spectrum. And surprisingly, I've actually met several guys like this in the past month or so, two of whom were hitting me up to help them break into session work. They seemed to have a sense of entitlement about it, because of their skills. So that got me going, which reminded me of things I see and hear at trade shows, etc. So hopefully you can at least understand my initial motivation.

It's obviously been on the edge of going too far up in here, which is not in line with the way I intended this forum to work in the first place. Last thing I want to be is known for having pre-judgements or for being exclusionary.

Sorry to all you ERB dudes. Apologies to the bass solo artists, too.

That said, a few replies (which I know are partly my responsibility for inciting) were unreasonably harsh and ugly. A couple of them seemed to make not-so-veiled attempts at cracking on my career path. The notion that I am an evangelist of playing the bass as a utility thing, rather than an artistic pursuit (IF indeed that notion is being directed my way) is complete poppycock, and the definition of art there is far too narrow. There has been some spin here, which goes pretty far away from what my actual ethos is. I do feel qualified to speak on the idea of the "vitals" of the bass, if only because I feel I have a good deal of stylistic range.* Sometimes, one can hear me pushing the envelope, sometimes one hears me doing something transparent and "song serving" (ugh, I know - I hate that too). A lot of the time I'm in the middle. I am truly happy doing both, I like what both ends of the spectrum offer to me. If my career (and other musicians of my ilk) has been a by-product of just "fitting in", being a "clone", "playing by the rules" or even "part of the great down fall of musical individuality", then it's all been a sham, and I should be ashamed of myself and tear up my CV. But it hasn't, and I won't.

Learning to walk before you can run. Can we all agree on the value of that cliched metaphor for playing bass? How can someone communicate emotively and effectively with fiery pyrotechnics if their time and feel sucks, for instance? They will falter, I think. Pretty sane and simple. Do I think bass players should play less notes, and simply groove on a P-Bass? Of course not, that's silly. And if that's what you infer from my takes on this thread, then you're just reading into it what you want to read. I like expanding the role of bass. But am I compelled to stand up vociferously for my right to push the boundaries on the bass in all recording/performance scenarios? HELL no. I do what's required when I need to, and stretch out when I can. Like most of us who do this for a living. If you want complete artistic freedom at ALL TIMES, then you shall have it! And my hat is off to you. With all respect, we simply do different things.

I'm not here to diss 5+ strings, or insult people for choosing that direction. If I have in the past, I apologize. I'd like my forum to be a bit more universal, without some of you having to feel like you're dealing with an elitist at the wheel. And the last thing I'll say about that is that I never said that you'll never get taken seriously for anything more than a 5 string, as one of you put it. Let me come right up to the present and be clear: I'm saying that specific to MY SCENE, you will likely run into trouble, particularly if that's all you roll with. But many of you are not in my scene, and are more than happy to be doing what you do. I don't do a lot of R & B, jazz/fusion, instrumental/experimental music, gospel, which SEEM to me to be the PRIMARY genres for those types of instruments; forgive me if I'm missing something. I do mainly do rock, pop, alternative rock, country, folk, electronic, film music, tv music, various experimental music, indie rock/punk rock stuff, and some hip hop and R&B. I'm only speaking about the circles I work in. So enough about that.

Nor do I have it in for bass solo artists. But I can certainly cop to having some prejudices, and of course a sense of what I like and don't like personally. And part of the cool side of this thread for me is that I feel, in some ways, I've gotten schooled. Schooled regarding prejudices, and the continuous need for an open mind and some sensitivity. Which is something I feel I'm generally good at. But there's always a "refresher course" waiting for every one of us, isn't there? I've looked in the mirror. Please do likewise, if you're inclined. A little honesty and humility never hurt anyone.

There's been some great posts and thoughts in this thread! Some universal truth, even.

I hope we can continue this with more positivity; I certainly take responsibility for my part in that. I think there's some bits of gold in here, especially if we can proceed with mutual respect accompanying all this forthright candor and interesting discourse.

Best,
Justin
Singapore, 2AM

p.s. This also means no more cracks from me about "driftwood", "chin rest", "coffee tables", "nineteen-band EQ", "Pappy Mc Slappy", "Scott Tapsalot", "Fred Shreddington" etc. ad nauseam. (I made some of those up just now. ) That may have provided amusement to some, but this is the more tolerant, more inclusive JMJ. Oh, and JMJ is only going to speak in the third person from here on out. Is that cool?


* Not tooting my horn, just giving examples of this alleged "range" of mine for those of you who may not be familiar with what I do: Beck (5+ albums), Tori Amos (3+ albums), Mars Volta, Seal, Brad Mehldau, Ladytron, Dixie Chicks, Dido, Air, Macy Gray, Courtney Love, Pink, Rob Thomas, Nelly Furtado, They Might Be Giants, IMA Robot, Gnarls Barkley, Black Eyed Peas, couple of dozen films, lots o' tv, some commercials, NIN, Emmy Lou Harris, Garbage, produced a few indie records, done a bunch of co-writes, etc.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

The notion that I am an evangelist of playing the bass as a utility thing, rather than an artistic pursuit (IF indeed that notion is being directed my way) is complete poppycock, and the definition of art there is far too narrow.

That wasn't a notion I was trying to state if you took it that way- quite the opposite in fact. Mine were general, and my mention of those who think serving the song means playing minimally were not directed at you or anyone else in particular.

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Word up. Serving the song and playing minimally are NOT bound together as a rule AT ALL, we all know this. I like your points.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Word up.

Great bassline in that song as well. It may have been a Pappy McSlappy line

 

[shriekback]

Well now...so you suspect there's no use for one since you have no use for one? OK, but having seen Jauqo play a 15-string before, I can tell you that you'd be wrong about that. The music I saw him play with one is pretty outside, but it's good stuff.

Okay. Fair enough. Would I personally wish to master such an instrument in order to play that sort of stuff? No, but that's where we can disagree about what constitutes a worthy end. If that kind of thing moves you or allows you to express something, sufficient to call for the development of the technique and a pretty esoteric instrument to apply it to--cool. I don't think it is any more admirable for being difficult, however. It's good or it ain't. If it is, or someone thinks it is, no problem here.

Good thing you're not the minister of art

Huh? Perhaps you can play a 15-string bass, but you didn't read my post very carefully. I admitted possible ignorance in respect to your instrument. If you have artistic or other ends such an instrument helps you realize, good for you. Keep playing it. Why give in to the weak temptation to cry censorship in the face of honest criticism, however? If you have a response to that criticism, offer it and let others consider it (the point of communication). Suggesting that someone, if they were only in the position to do so, would wish to oppress you or stifle your free expression, without any basis for such a suggestion, is pretty aggressive and only creates the impression you have no other response. Had you, on the other hand, attempted to explain what it is a 15-string bass will let you do and how that new capacity enables you to pursue some particular artistic goals (rather than just to impress yourself and others with how unusual and difficult it is), we might have all learned something from you.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Huh? Perhaps you can play a 15-string bass, but you didn't read my post very carefully. I admitted possible ignorance in respect to your instrument. If you have artistic or other ends such an instrument helps you realize, good for you. Keep playing it. Why give in to the weak temptation to cry censorship in the face of honest criticism, however? If you have a response to that criticism, offer it and let others consider it (the point of communication). Suggesting that someone, if they were only in the position to do so, would wish to oppress you or stifle your free expression, without any basis for such a suggestion, is pretty aggressive and only creates the impression you have no other response. Had you, on the other hand, attempted to explain what it is a 15-string bass will let you do and how that new capacity enables you to pursue some particular artistic goals (rather than just to impress yourself and others with how unusual and difficult it is), we might have all learned something from you.

You missed my point. I was not defending what type of bass I play nor was I defending my ability to play bass at all.

But as an artist it is about me first and what comes after,I have no problem sharing it with those who choose to like it or not.


In your post you make it seem as if cookie cutter and safety zone is the way to achieve self musical bliss and that is the only way for any one to even take a peep at what one does and it ends there.



My point was on allowing an artist to be who and what they feel they are but most importantly sometimes what they don't know about they're inner artist.

Some times all it takes is for someone to come along and let the artist out of their cage ,for the world to really get that rare glimpse of musical beauty.


One flavor is not even for the masses but the masses really don't know that.

They need to start thinking for themselves and not fearing that to think for self really is a great thing.


Your post also came off as if you don't like it then it must be garbage.

 

[shriekback]

In your post you make it seem as if cookie cutter and safety zone is the way to achieve self musical bliss and that is the only way for any one to even take a peep at what one does and it ends there.

I'm not sure how you got that from the claim that one should not confuse technique for art. Really, I don't. Technique can serve art, for sure, and yours and JMJ's may be very fine examples of refined technique serving genuine art, but MERE technique, no matter how sophisticated, is poor art, at best. That's what I thought JMJ was trying to say, along with offering some advice about how one might avoid such confusion, and all I meant to say. The few places I reveal my own particular sensibilities (hardly cookie cutter and safe--I just don't, for example, care for bass soloing) were just meant as examples of how we might disagree at points (what is good music), yet still have a common commitment to music as such (as opposed to mere musicianship).

They need to start thinking for themselves and not fearing that to think for self really is a great thing.

If you're suggesting that you are for independent thought, so am I. I think that thought must go beyond technique to what ends that technique may or may not serve, that's all. Otherwise, although it may require cogitation, mere focus on means without any concern for ends, is not thought. That is, in fact, how ideology (or 'false consciousness') functions--it serves to get people to attend to means while obscuring the ends they serve and making appear suspect any attempt to consider those ends. Go to a 4th of July picnic and start a conversation on the worth and value of nationalism if you want an example of this.

 

[bobbykokinos]

Anyone want to hug it out?

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Right here. Arms wide open like Creed, yo!

 

[ElMon]

This thread has everything: bickering, conflicting viewpoints, hugs, Creed. Wow.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

 

[JimmyM]

p.s. This also means no more cracks from me about "driftwood", "chin rest", "coffee tables", "nineteen-band EQ", "Pappy Mc Slappy", "Scott Tapsalot", "Fred Shreddington" etc. ad nauseam. (I made some of those up just now. ) That may have provided amusement to some, but this is the more tolerant, more inclusive JMJ. Oh, and JMJ is only going to speak in the third person from here on out. Is that cool?

All but the 3rd person stuff. Don't do that. If you have to refer to yourself in the 3rd person, go all the way and call yourself Justin Meldal-Johnsen, not JMJ. A pretentious 3rd person speaker would never use initials

Anyway, yeah, I think it's really lame to play the "I'm a starving artist and you're a sellout" card. They can say that, but meanwhile, I don't know a single person in this thread who would honestly turn down a gig with NIN or Beck. Bowzer they might turn down, but I even doubt that They'll say they would, but they wouldn't. They'd be on it like flies on dog poop. But I guess it makes people who aren't getting asked to join NIN feel better. Hey, if that's selling out, then selling out kicks f'n ass, and we should all aspire to it.