An Essay, August 2, 2009

[jmjbassplayer]

a lot of relevant points were made. and a lot of good ideas were shared.

it's unfortunate, though, that that couldn't have happened without slagging other guys and what they want to do. sorta shooting fish in a barrel, no? especially from your vantage point, right? .

Your reply is greatly timed, because I've been thinking about this very thing and beyond.

There is an important subheading of this thread, that we could just call "Snobbery".

Yeah, I could see how my post could be construed as slagging. I think my "emphatic" missives about 7 strings and the slapping don't come across as humorous as I had intended them too, and now I feel a little bad about it. (Maybe I need to use more of them silly icons? I gotta get down with the interwebz). Fish in a barrel indeed. Well, consider me willingly chastened, and I apologize if I offended.

To take this further, since I love the philosophical aspect of this:

I noticed all your basses in your picture there with quite a lot of strings, and some missing frets (Just a little joke! ). So I see where your affinities are at, and that's cool. Anyway, in seriousness: I could also see how someone of your personal aesthetic/style/taste would read what I wrote and easily say: "Hey - NOW who's the snob, Mr. Purist? You're preaching about conservatism, and YOU have an obvious bias to only four-string basses and non-soloistic approaches!" Just as an example.

That right there is proof that in no way am I immune to the same necessary self-scrutiny that I speak about. Do I need to open my mind to solo bass music? Fusion-funk? Super shredding gospel? Face-melting prog? Modern R&B? Probably yes! If there's good music in a genre, one should be open enough to go get a real taste.

The mirror works on everyone.

I think the overall tenor of the salient points of my opinion piece hold true: basics first, learn about all KINDS of music, don't limit yourself, etc.

Carry on!

Best,
JMJ
Bankok Airport, 6:55AM

 

[liquid-dream-ex]

The mirror works on everyone.

Not if you're a vampire. You've been to Romania, you should know that!

 

[john turner]

Your reply is greatly timed, because I've been thinking about this very thing and beyond.

There is an important subheading of this thread, that we could just call "Snobbery".

Yeah, I could see how my post could be construed as slagging. I think my "emphatic" missives about 7 strings and the slapping don't come across as humorous as I had intended them too, and now I feel a little bad about it. (Maybe I need to use more of them silly icons? I gotta get down with the interwebz). Fish in a barrel indeed. Well, consider me willingly chastened, and I apologize if I offended.

nah, i've listened to your stuff for a long time, and dug it, so i understand where you're coming from musically. i'm not so self-centered to take stuff like that personally, and besides, believe me i've heard a lot worse.

i just sorta think that, with a lot of the things going on in music right now, to have someone of your calibre participating and sharing on talkbass is a complete blessing, and i don't want anyone else to miss out on your contributions because they perceive (incorrectly) a bias, and that can be about anything, not just string count or whatever.

erb players (extended range bass, just like many minority groups, we have a catchy tla by which to refer to ourselves ) tend to be a sensitive and often defensive lot, after all.

To take this further, since I love the philosophical aspect of this:

I noticed all your basses in your picture there with quite a lot of strings, and some missing frets (Just a little joke! ). So I see where your affinities are at, and that's cool. Anyway, in seriousness: I could also see how someone of your personal aesthetic/style/taste would read what I wrote and easily say: "Hey - NOW who's the snob, Mr. Purist? You're preaching about conservatism, and YOU have an obvious bias to only four-string basses and non-soloistic approaches!" Just as an example.

That right there is proof that in no way am I immune to the same necessary self-scrutiny that I speak about. Do I need to open my mind to solo bass music? Fusion-funk? Super shredding gospel? Face-melting prog? Modern R&B? Probably yes! If there's good music in a genre, one should be open enough to go get a real taste.

The mirror works on everyone.

I think the overall tenor of the salient points of my opinion piece hold true: basics first, learn about all KINDS of music, don't limit yourself, etc.

Carry on!

Best,
JMJ
Bankok Airport, 6:55AM

you know, that self scrutiny element is the best part of your post, something that doesn't get stressed enough to a lot of folks.

i've heard the saying "if you're not growing your dying" and the only way to grow as a player is to scrutinize and challenege one's self, at least that i have found. not a day goes by that i don't question myself "what the heck am i doing?" heh. it's good to see the honest-to-god real deal does too. too many folks at your level seem to not do that, and popular music suffers for it, i think.

it really is great to have you in our forums, sir . i'm glad you feel motivated to share this kind of thing with us.

 

[JimmyM]

I wasn't offended at all by Justin's remark because he's not talking about a kind of bass...he's talking about the mindset of players who have all these skills at playing fast but don't have the depth to make it sound like music. He just happened to give an example of someone who might fit the stereotype and used your favorite kind of bass as an example. We all know there are bassists who use ERB's that do good stuff with them. Let's not get so PC about it where you can't joke about the ones who buy them specifically to wank. Can't tell me they're not out there.

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Feeling you on all this!
Thanks very much,
JMJ

nah, i've listened to your stuff for a long time, and dug it, so i understand where you're coming from musically. i'm not so self-centered to take stuff like that personally, and besides, believe me i've heard a lot worse.

i just sorta think that, with a lot of the things going on in music right now, to have someone of your calibre participating and sharing on talkbass is a complete blessing, and i don't want anyone else to miss out on your contributions because they perceive (incorrectly) a bias, and that can be about anything, not just string count or whatever.

erb players (extended range bass, just like many minority groups, we have a catchy tla by which to refer to ourselves ) tend to be a sensitive and often defensive lot, after all.



you know, that self scrutiny element is the best part of your post, something that doesn't get stressed enough to a lot of folks.

i've heard the saying "if you're not growing your dying" and the only way to grow as a player is to scrutinize and challenege one's self, at least that i have found. not a day goes by that i don't question myself "what the heck am i doing?" heh. it's good to see the honest-to-god real deal does too. too many folks at your level seem to not do that, and popular music suffers for it, i think.

it really is great to have you in our forums, sir . i'm glad you feel motivated to share this kind of thing with us.

 

[ElMon]

I"m sure there are ERB players that have a similar 'serve the song' ethic to their own playing that guy's like Justin represent on recordings, and as a result could produce some beautiful, approachable bass-only music. Heck, doesn't Vanessa Williams' bassist play a 7string? If HE can get away with it on a R&B gig, who knows...............

I think the type of wank-happy no-talent @$$ clowns that JMJ was referring to in the OP applies to a few different types of instruments and how certain axes/setups are attached to certain stereotypes that bassists/non-bassists a like pick up. For instance:

* I pull out a fretless Jbass for a singer/songwriter show and immediately 5 guys ask me to 'play some Jaco'. Or the worried artist wonders 'He's not gonna Jaco it up on all of my tunes is he?"

* I pull out a 6 string bass because I'm more comfortable having such a huge range in one position on the fretboard. Immediately the keyboard player becomes standoffish that I might play both of our parts at the same time.

So on and so forth. We as humans tend to overcategorize/label/limit certain aspects of music making/gear to the point where its hard not to have a knee-jerk reaction. Of course those prejudices also exist because there HAVE been too many Jaco/Victor/Steve-Vai-on bass type wankers who have given the rest of us a bad name!!!!

 

[TaySte_2000]

I"m sure there are ERB players that have a similar 'serve the song' ethic to their own playing that guy's like Justin represent on recordings, and as a result could produce some beautiful, approachable bass-only music. Heck, doesn't Vanessa Williams' bassist play a 7string? If HE can get away with it on a R&B gig, who knows...............

He actually plays 9 and 11 string basses, this was just my excuse to subscribe to this thread.

 

[jmjbassplayer]

He actually plays 9 and 11 string basses, this was just my excuse to subscribe to this thread.

Christ on a stick! 9 and 11-strings? That's bananas! How can you rock out on something with a neck that wide?? I'd love to see a picture of one.

Ironically both Beck AND Trent often joke with me about getting a many-stringed bass and strapping that bad boy right underneath my chin. Kind of a common joke amongst most musicians in LA, the very intense driftwood, many-band EQ, many-stringed instrument.

I do feel for the guys that enjoy and live that experience...I wonder if it gets tough on sessions when you bring in instruments like that, like if you get weird looks/sniggers. In LA session world, it's pretty broadly taboo.

JMJ

p.s. Confession time: I own a 5-string Fender Deluxe Jazz. Recorded some of the last Garbage album with it, and one other session I can't remember. I keep it around in case there's a request.

 

[TaySte_2000]

I'd love to see a picture of one.

Your wish is my command

He is btw a member here on TB and a very nice guy and great player

 

[TaySte_2000]

Also you know damn well you have 6,8 and 12 string basses ish

 

[NickyBass]

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that JMJ is speaking more about younger kids who skip over the 'basics' and jump right into double thumbing and fretboard gymnastics. My view is that there is nothing wrong with exploring other avenues---IF you have put in time with the basics. In the end, it is all about taste. Someone with bad taste will sound bad, regardless of instrument or technique.

I love to hear tastey slap lines. When I listen to Louis Johnson or some Marcus Miller, there is nothing more satisfying. The problem is, most of the slap that we hear sounds awful, and it's gotten a bad rep.

I dig what you are saying about being an individual. You mention learning Beatles tunes, etc, but at what point do you think it's best to break off on your own? I mean, we have to work on the basics and pay attention to those that laid down the foundation, but to have one's own voice means to look beyond the past and focus inside. Can you offer any advise on looking to the future while paying homage to the past?

 

[JimmyM]

I dig what you are saying about being an individual. You mention learning Beatles tunes, etc, but at what point do you think it's best to break off on your own? I mean, we have to work on the basics and pay attention to those that laid down the foundation, but to have one's own voice means to look beyond the past and focus inside. Can you offer any advise on looking to the future while paying homage to the past?

Can't answer for J, but I don't see the two concepts as having definite beginnings and endings. I see the study of music history as an ongoing process that you can do long after you've found your own voice. And I see having your own voice as something that just comes from taking those experiences with music and putting them through the blender that is our brain. All musicians steal from others. But if you keep stealing from the same source, eventually that source is going to dry up. So you steal from a lot of different sources to keep the flow of information coming, which in turn prevents stale playing, which will eventually result in your own voice shining through and being more unique.

At least that's the way I see it.

 

[NickyBass]

I agree, Jimmy, and that's what I'm doing....I'm just learning as much as I can and looking for influence everywhere.

I guess, what I noticed in the OP is that there is a bit of duality. At first, he was advising to find one's own voice and not be a Jaco clone, for example. Then the end came around to learning from the 'masters,' so to speak. So, I suppose it was an abstract question. You know, where does one color of the spectrum end, and the next begin?....something like that.

Where does the influence of others end, and the 'inside voice' start?

 

[JimmyM]

It begins and ends with the player's ability to process the information and make it their own thing. The info is there...it's up to you what you do with it.

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Your wish is my command

He is btw a member here on TB and a very nice guy and great player

OMFG!!! That's the craziest thing I've ever seen! That thing is a shred weapon!

 

[jmjbassplayer]

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that JMJ is speaking more about younger kids who skip over the 'basics' and jump right into double thumbing and fretboard gymnastics. My view is that there is nothing wrong with exploring other avenues---IF you have put in time with the basics. In the end, it is all about taste. Someone with bad taste will sound bad, regardless of instrument or technique.

I love to hear tastey slap lines. When I listen to Louis Johnson or some Marcus Miller, there is nothing more satisfying. The problem is, most of the slap that we hear sounds awful, and it's gotten a bad rep.

I dig what you are saying about being an individual. You mention learning Beatles tunes, etc, but at what point do you think it's best to break off on your own? I mean, we have to work on the basics and pay attention to those that laid down the foundation, but to have one's own voice means to look beyond the past and focus inside. Can you offer any advise on looking to the future while paying homage to the past?

I am speaking of those younger kids who skip basics, for sure. But I'm also speaking of older cats who only slap/shred (as far I can see) and don't bother to play something simple and sublime and just groove. And then I am speaking about learning from the great music of the past and present as a way to give yourself a launching pad to your own sound, and having a reference point for taste, groove, arrangements, roles and function, time, pitch, tone, etc. Also, just so you can communicate with a greater slice of the musical world.

As far as breaking off on your own, you do that as soon as you have something to say on your instrument. As soon as you can "make a complete sentence" on your instrument, or "cook a meal" with it (insert your own silly metaphor), then you have assumed the position of confidently having your own voice. For some, it comes in the first few months of playing. For others, like me, it takes a bit longer. In other words, it's arbitrary, and has as much to do with spirit and intention as it does with taste, musicianship, mechanics, etc.

And look: Beck's "Sexx Laws" is an example of me playing way too many notes, but it was dictated by the circumstances. Same with a bunch of Ima Robot songs.

Shredding and having taste are not always mutually exclusive, to overstate the obvious. Shredding for it's own sake? That's up to you. I can only watch/listen to it academically or ironically.

JMJ

 

[JustOpenYourMind]

Hi justin,

I certainly am not the kinda bass player that's going to get a 10 string bass as I wouldn't have any use for it 99,9 percet of the time.

I see them as more of a tool, much like an effect, there are certain things you can do with these that simply can't be done with normal instruments.

I greatly respect any player that can use these instruments with taste and make wondereful music.

I don't know if you seen that clip, but it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about:

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However I think that when a player is into these teritories, it's not bass playing, it's more than that, you just do everything at once, much like a piano player.

As long as it's not wanking, it's ok with me, I mean someone wanking is like watching a guy juggle with buring chainsaws, it's very cool... for about 5 minutes then it gets old real quick...

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Hi justin,

I certainly am not the kinda bass player that's going to get a 10 string bass as I wouldn't have any use for it 99,9 percet of the time.

I see them as more of a tool, much like an effect, there are certain things you can do with these that simply can't be done with normal instruments.

I greatly respect any player that can use these instruments with taste and make wondereful music.

I don't know if you seen that clip, but it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about:

Invalid Link Removed

However I think that when a player is into these teritories, it's not bass playing, it's more than that, you just do everything at once, much like a piano player.

As long as it's not wanking, it's ok with me, I mean someone wanking is like watching a guy juggle with buring chainsaws, it's very cool... for about 5 minutes then it gets old real quick...

Word to all that. Nice video, those guys are very fine players. Far more learned than I. And the tune they're playing is pretty. Personal taste sure factors in: My first thought is the instruments. I'm doing everything I can to stifle a laugh when I see instruments like that. But different strokes for different folks. Some people think those basses are complete artwork. Hence subjectivity. As far as the music, taste also is the main driver. Those guys are killing it, of course. But it's hard for me to get down with it; just doesn't speak to me beyond me hearing a pretty tune and some savvy technique.

Of COURSE I respect the players. That's great. Just like I always say, there's 50,000 dudes who can play better bass technically than I. And I'm in awe of so many of them. But that's not really what this thread is about. This thread is about those who forego MUSIC for something else (such as technique, posturing, whatever - remember, it could be your garden variety hipster with greasy hair, thick framed glasses and ironic beard just as much as it could be Joe Slaps-A-Lot or Steve Taps-A-Bunch), yet expect to be called great musicians and/or expect to be put on a pedestal for chops, while their true innate musicality either lies dormant or is non-existent.

THAT, my friends, is super jive. That's what divides musicians from technicians.

To go even further off track: what's also super jive, to me, is the seeming arms race that has developed in terms of which guy has the most number of strings or most ornately-adorned piece of driftwood. I'm not calling these guys out in this video, specifically. But wow, is it getting out of hand. Does it have to go that far? Really? I'm scared to go to the next trade show, where I'm bound to see someone upping the bar exponentially: A bass around their neck made of spalted maple, ancient Ecuadorian shazamazam and African kokooboogoo, a full piano soundboard with 88 strings and frets added. How they're going to get their wrist around it, OR get hired to play on a record, I have no idea.

Best,
JMJ

 

[Darkstrike]

OR get hired to play on a record,

Just wanted to say, FWIW, some people don't play music to make money, while being a paid pro is fantastic, some just do it because its what they love to do.

 

[jmjbassplayer]

Just wanted to say, FWIW, some people don't play music to make money, while being a paid pro is fantastic, some just do it because its what they love to do.

Of course they do, and God bless 'em. And those aren't the people I'm referring to. As an example, I'm referring to the many people I've been approached by over the years (at trade shows, via PM, at gigs) who rock that variety of bass (which was the context of me making my joke, I was not referring to a style of music) and ask me how they go about breaking into the kind of work I do. And frankly, it's not going to fly with their many-stringed weapon. Not in my scene, anyway.

I'm going to step away from this thread now, specifically avoiding the subjects of extended range basses, chops, tapping, slapping, etc. I think I've made my points and don't need to explain any further. I'll let you guys take over as you wish.

JMJ