Analog Sub Octaver tracking & EBMM Stingray

[blindrabbit]

The Stingray 3-band preamp has a built-in high-pass filter. Depending on which post you read, it's set somewhere between 45 and 60 hz. That helps it sound more punchy and less muddy, but it may be messing with the pedal's tracking.

Tom

This is a good point. It looks like the drop starts around 60Hz.

 

[Alien8]

Thanks everyone for your input thus far. I'm glad to see there is some consistency out there!

I think this is an issue with pickup location. Analog octavers are looking for the fundamental note, and when they glitch its usually because they are grabbing on the octave harmonic instead. The native fundamental of a single pickup Stingray is fairly light compared to a Jazz or even a P, which is why they tend to sound so tight in a mix. I experienced the same issue on my G&L L2000 with the bridge-pickup soloed (even farther back than the Stingray) or on a J with the bridge soloed. I can get OK tracking on my Ric with the bridge pickup soloed as long as I cut the Tone a decent bit, but blending in the neck pickup improves things makes the tracking far better!

Raising the Bass EQ and lowering the mids on a Stingray seems like it'd be the best bet, though depending on the spectrum of the Bass control the improvement might be limited to a certain range/register. Tracking for most octave pedals seems to be cleanest if you keep above the 7th fret regardless of bass IME. Having tried most of the contemporary analog octaves out there, I feel like the tracking on the SubT is some of the best, so I don't think its the pedal+bass combo that is the root issue.

I agree with this post, and was leaning towards this being the cause. What throws me off is that a few people don't have the issue. I'm impressed with how well the SubT can track - my P is tuned BEAD and it loves the low B string and wont glitch out until I get down to D. I also don't care so much that a real "note" is coming out, its more the timbre that I am seeing, but the tracking and locking in on one result is key.

The Stingray 3-band preamp has a built-in high-pass filter. Depending on which post you read, it's set somewhere between 45 and 60 hz. That helps it sound more punchy and less muddy, but it may be messing with the pedal's tracking.

Tom

This is also one of my thoughts - I'm considering wiring a passive mode just to test it out without the pre amp affecting the signal. Then I can also use my own EQ to boost and cut the section of lows that I need to be forward.

With old strings I find it hard to track octavers (used to have EBS Octabass and now I'm using Cog effects T-16 ) , mostly between the 1st and 6th fret with sustained notes.

I use Elixir 45-105. When they're new , it a little better, but I would rather use the E A D strings on higher frets.

Here's a small demo I did when I just got the T-16

Some of the info is not correct (about the filter position) but I was too lazy to change it.

WOW! Great demo, Thanks! Again another consideration I have made - strings. I'm using flats and haven't tried rounds in a while. Maybe I will try this too.

I have to say that T-16 sounds sweet! I haven't heard a clear demo like yours, and it has some really great spongy texture and fat lows!

 

[Alien8]

Given the tracking issue I have begins at about the A note and the high pass cutoff is about 57hz, removing the high pass should help... going to start trying here. Will report back.

 

[sunbeast]

Thanks everyone for your input thus far. I'm glad to see there is some consistency out there!



I agree with this post, and was leaning towards this being the cause. What throws me off is that a few people don't have the issue. I'm impressed with how well the SubT can track - my P is tuned BEAD and it loves the low B string and wont glitch out until I get down to D. I also don't care so much that a real "note" is coming out, its more the timbre that I am seeing, but the tracking and locking in on one result is key.



This is also one of my thoughts - I'm considering wiring a passive mode just to test it out without the pre amp affecting the signal. Then I can also use my own EQ to boost and cut the section of lows that I need to be forward.



WOW! Great demo, Thanks! Again another consideration I have made - strings. I'm using flats and haven't tried rounds in a while. Maybe I will try this too.

I have to say that T-16 sounds sweet! I haven't heard a clear demo like yours, and it has some really great spongy texture and fat lows!

I don't know for sure but I thought I had read that the stock pickups in Stingrays are fairly low output and boosted significantly by the preamp (which gives them a wider frequency response), so you may have a pretty low output in passive mode...

 

[ilansgroove]

Thanks everyone for your input thus far. I'm glad to see there is some consistency out there!



I agree with this post, and was leaning towards this being the cause. What throws me off is that a few people don't have the issue. I'm impressed with how well the SubT can track - my P is tuned BEAD and it loves the low B string and wont glitch out until I get down to D. I also don't care so much that a real "note" is coming out, its more the timbre that I am seeing, but the tracking and locking in on one result is key.



This is also one of my thoughts - I'm considering wiring a passive mode just to test it out without the pre amp affecting the signal. Then I can also use my own EQ to boost and cut the section of lows that I need to be forward.



WOW! Great demo, Thanks! Again another consideration I have made - strings. I'm using flats and haven't tried rounds in a while. Maybe I will try this too.

I have to say that T-16 sounds sweet! I haven't heard a clear demo like yours, and it has some really great spongy texture and fat lows!

Thanks

 

[Alien8]

With old strings I find it hard to track octavers (used to have EBS Octabass and now I'm using Cog effects T-16 ) , mostly between the 1st and 6th fret with sustained notes.

I use Elixir 45-105. When they're new , it a little better, but I would rather use the E A D strings on higher frets.

Here's a small demo I did when I just got the T-16

Some of the info is not correct (about the filter position) but I was too lazy to change it.

Do you have the 3EQ stingray or the classic 2EQ?

Edit: I just watched some of your other vids - my god - AWESOME! its the 3EQ.

 

[garmenteros]

I havent had issues with my stingray 5 hh and my ebs octabass. Tracks really well actually.

 

[ilansgroove]

Do you have the 3EQ stingray or the classic 2EQ?

Edit: I just watched some of your other vids - my god - AWESOME! its the 3EQ.

Thanks !

Yes , 3EQ.... Love this bass !!!

 

[Alien8]

This is a good point. It looks like the drop starts around 60Hz.

Right here, this was the money. Remove that nice ski slope of a high pass and SUBBZZ!! My god, What a difference!!

The whole low end is opened right up, and its sweet! This bass went from great to in-disposable. Forget my P, it can walk (not really) but wow.

So before the SubT tracked okay-ish down to about a B (7th on low E). Now it doesn't matter where I play its locked, and all that technique I developed earlier just feeds into it!

The low end is quite different across the board. I prefer it, some may not because it does change the character a bit. I always found the bass knob to be cranked anyways, not now tho, just a dab will do. Why this was a part of the design from the get go I have not a clue - it's thumpy and subby without a pedal. So much happier now.

I found that I'm pulling back on the bass knob a bit on preamps and getting nearly the same tone I was before, just with some added oomph - and not a bunch, just what was missing. The ToneHammer, Xero Dlx & Empress comp all add great things to this new sound.

I'm digging it and hope someone can find some resolution from this thread!

 

[MobileHolmes]

I haven't noticed any tracking issues with my MXR BOD and stingray. That said, the one really glitchy pedal I've used (Boss SYB 3) almost always did better with the treble rolled off substantially on any bass. Like sunbeast says, the issue seems to be the high overtones getting wonky. That said, it isn't a great solution if you are using a blend with your clean tone, since your clean tone ends up being pretty dark. It wasn't an issue with the SYB3 since I was just replacing the bass sound anyway)

 

[TOOL460002]

Too late to make noise now, but tomorrow I'll go over tracking on a digitech bass whammy, boss ps-3, ehx hog, and a couple synth. But I don't recall ANY tracking issues, except way down low. And I've got both a 2 band and 3 band EBMM stingray.

Weird. I've never heard of this issue specific to a stingray. I would think active would send a stronger signal and thatd help, but that's just a guess. I do get warble on the ps-3 down low. Digitech tracks to a low G pretty darn good. But I also am not huge on Sun octaves, mostly a 3rd, 5th, or 1 or 2 octaves up.

 

[Alien8]

Too late to make noise now, but tomorrow I'll go over tracking on a digitech bass whammy, boss ps-3, ehx hog, and a couple synth. But I don't recall ANY tracking issues, except way down low. And I've got both a 2 band and 3 band EBMM stingray.

Weird. I've never heard of this issue specific to a stingray. I would think active would send a stronger signal and thatd help, but that's just a guess. I do get warble on the ps-3 down low. Digitech tracks to a low G pretty darn good. But I also am not huge on Sun octaves, mostly a 3rd, 5th, or 1 or 2 octaves up.

I've found digital to be fine, that's why the thread is specific to Analog sub octavers. Hog tracked without problems for me initially (haven't tested again yet)

I will reiterate that adjusting the cutoff of the high pass filter does in fact restore a portion of the bass note that I find critical to shaking walls, which also happens to be what the octaver wants!

Edit: To be clear, I can sustain an open low E and have the octaver "track" the note. The result is a fantastic timbre.

 

[blindrabbit]

Right here, this was the money. Remove that nice ski slope of a high pass and SUBBZZ!! My god, What a difference!!

The whole low end is opened right up, and its sweet! This bass went from great to in-disposable. Forget my P, it can walk (not really) but wow.

So before the SubT tracked okay-ish down to about a B (7th on low E). Now it doesn't matter where I play its locked, and all that technique I developed earlier just feeds into it!

The low end is quite different across the board. I prefer it, some may not because it does change the character a bit. I always found the bass knob to be cranked anyways, not now tho, just a dab will do. Why this was a part of the design from the get go I have not a clue - it's thumpy and subby without a pedal. So much happier now.

I found that I'm pulling back on the bass knob a bit on preamps and getting nearly the same tone I was before, just with some added oomph - and not a bunch, just what was missing. The ToneHammer, Xero Dlx & Empress comp all add great things to this new sound.

I'm digging it and hope someone can find some resolution from this thread!

Makes me wish I had my Sterling back, as I think frustrations over how it worked (or didn't) with octavers was one of the reasons I sold it in a fit of GAS.

Anyway, how did you bypass the highpass? Mod the circuit, or switch over to passive, or install a new preamp?

 

[Alien8]

Makes me wish I had my Sterling back, as I think frustrations over how it worked (or didn't) with octavers was one of the reasons I sold it in a fit of GAS.

Anyway, how did you bypass the highpass? Mod the circuit, or switch over to passive, or install a new preamp?

I modded the existing preamp. Changed two capacitors and updated the op amp while I was at it. The opamp made things just a little more clear and added some "air" and the capacitors lowered the cutoff frequency. There was motivation for me to add a passive switch and a pickup config (parallel/series/single) but all of that is gone now. This change got me exactly where I wanted those things to take me .

I used these as guides:
DIY Stingray 3EQ Preamp

DIY Stingray 3EQ Preamp

 

[TOOL460002]

Makes me wish I had my Sterling back, as I think frustrations over how it worked (or didn't) with octavers was one of the reasons I sold it in a fit of GAS.

Anyway, how did you bypass the highpass? Mod the circuit, or switch over to passive, or install a new preamp?

Isn't the hog analog? I know the Octavius squeezer has an analog octave down, but it's optical, so I'm not sure if the tracking is analog or not. But the OS has a great sub octave that tracks low. I'm not sure where optical/analog combo type pedals fall.

 

[corganmurray]

I am so glad I found this thread. Thank you all for your hard work solving this specific problem for me!

 

[cnltb]

i think that pickup position is a factor as is playing technique.
The strings on my bass are 10 years old and I have no trackin issues.

On rays, the P/U is a bit far back maybe ?