• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Ancient Technology Enthusiasts Club!


I do not wish to be linking to a lyre, but it too is an ancient tech.. Lucky son pf a gun, this cat's mum, is Calliope. They even took the lad on the Odyssey solely because he rocked:) He got ALL the girls, plainly. It is written.

Tech. — tech. in a storyfigurative. Spanning the gap. Ancient to modern. Music to my ears. Timeless. Inherent. Essential. Word.



 
  • Like
Reactions: fig
LOL reviving your old comment, but it does make me think about the whole "aliens" nonsense. Why are all these monuments made from quarried stone? Why isn't there any plastic or steel in their construction?

So are you suggesting that aliens should have should have drilled oil wells, built oil refineries, built polymerization of ethene plants, and plastic manufacturing plants instead of just cutting stones from the ground? Or digging iron ore mines, digging coal mines, combining the coal (coke) and ore in a blast furnace that they also would have to have built, produce the pig iron, and then manufacturing steel from the iron through an oxygen furnace, instead of just cutting stones from the ground?

It's a matter of what materials are available and are readily usable, without the need for a complex infrastructure for manufacturing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stewie26
So are you suggesting that aliens should have should have drilled oil wells, built oil refineries, built polymerization of ethene plants, and plastic manufacturing plants instead of just cutting stones from the ground? Or digging iron ore mines, digging coal mines, combining the coal (coke) and ore in a blast furnace that they also would have to have built, produce the pig iron, and then manufacturing steel from the iron through an oxygen furnace, instead of just cutting stones from the ground?

It's a matter of what materials are available and are readily usable, without the need for a complex infrastructure for manufacturing.

When Europeans came to the new world, they brought their technologies with them. It was necessary for long-term survival and colonization. I would think aliens would not embark on interstellar journeys without the ability to make things they need at an Earth-like planet destination. Maybe it wouldn't be so much metal and plastic, but carbon fiber and other exotic materials not known to us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hrodbert696
So are you suggesting that aliens should have should have drilled oil wells, built oil refineries, built polymerization of ethene plants, and plastic manufacturing plants instead of just cutting stones from the ground? Or digging iron ore mines, digging coal mines, combining the coal (coke) and ore in a blast furnace that they also would have to have built, produce the pig iron, and then manufacturing steel from the iron through an oxygen furnace, instead of just cutting stones from the ground?

It's a matter of what materials are available and are readily usable, without the need for a complex infrastructure for manufacturing.

Sure, why not? Why would doing any of those things make less sense to do than moving big stones around?

Besides, you cut off the second half of my musings. Medieval cathedrals are also built from stone blocks, cut with tools not terribly different than what, say, the ancient Egyptians had. But where a "gothic" cathedral differs from a Pyramid is that it is FAR, FAR more sophisticated in its design when it comes to the physics of weight distribution. Pointed arches, groin vaults and flying buttresses enabled them to open up interior space to a degree the Egyptians (and even the Romans) would have found miraculous, and even more so, to free up wall area for windows rather than weight-bearing stone, allowing light to stream in through stained-glass windows in a way that, again, would have boggled the minds of those more ancient peoples.

Pyramids have a few cleverly-constructed bits in them, but fundamentally they're big heaps of rock, artificial hills that CAN'T have high vertical walls and interior space because the walls would buckle outward and the roof collapse. Their interior spaces are tiny. Even the great temple at Karnak is crowded with endless, dense colonnades of heavy columns because without them, the roof would cave in. The Great Hypostyle Hall at Karnak covers 5,000 square meters with 134 columns to hold up its roof beams, 79' high at the maximum: Notre Dame de Paris covers 4800 square meters with just 75 columns holding a roof 108' high at its minimum. Notre Dame, in other words, is much better engineering. But nobody pretends that aliens built Notre Dame, or any of the hundreds of other churches of its era with similar traits.

So the point is, if aliens with sufficient knowledge of physics to be able to travel through space came to Earth and, having arrived, felt it was worth their while to help the Earthlings move rocks around to build things, why didn't they contribute any engineering expertise to the project? With all their technology and science, why did they... act like slave labor?
 
So the point is, if aliens with sufficient knowledge of physics to be able to travel through space came to Earth and, having arrived, felt it was worth their while to help the Earthlings move rocks around to build things, why didn't they contribute any engineering expertise to the project?

So I guess you are suggesting that aliens should have drilled oil wells, built oil refineries, built polymerization of ethene plants, and plastic manufacturing plants instead of just cutting stones from the ground. Or digging iron ore mines, digging coal mines, combining the coal (coke) and ore in a blast furnace that they also would have to have built, produce the pig iron, and then manufacturing steel from the iron through an oxygen furnace, instead of just cutting stones from the ground.

Seems to me that it's a lot easier and quicker to just cut stones from the ground, instead of investing all that time and energy in building mining and processing plants. Seems to me too, that they did contribute engineering expertise in helping to build all those megalithic buildings.
 
So I guess you are suggesting that aliens should have drilled oil wells, built oil refineries, built polymerization of ethene plants, and plastic manufacturing plants instead of just cutting stones from the ground. Or digging iron ore mines, digging coal mines, combining the coal (coke) and ore in a blast furnace that they also would have to have built, produce the pig iron, and then manufacturing steel from the iron through an oxygen furnace, instead of just cutting stones from the ground.

Seems to me that it's a lot easier and quicker to just cut stones from the ground, instead of investing all that time and energy in building mining and processing plants. Seems to me too, that they did contribute engineering expertise in helping to build all those megalithic buildings.

No need to go through the primitive way we make steel. Aliens with starship technology could make iron in their fusion reactors. With advanced enough fusion tech they could make any element they need.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hrodbert696
So I guess you are suggesting that aliens should have drilled oil wells, built oil refineries, built polymerization of ethene plants, and plastic manufacturing plants instead of just cutting stones from the ground. Or digging iron ore mines, digging coal mines, combining the coal (coke) and ore in a blast furnace that they also would have to have built, produce the pig iron, and then manufacturing steel from the iron through an oxygen furnace, instead of just cutting stones from the ground.

Seems to me that it's a lot easier and quicker to just cut stones from the ground, instead of investing all that time and energy in building mining and processing plants. Seems to me too, that they did contribute engineering expertise in helping to build all those megalithic buildings.

Let's backtrack a bit. I'm talking about "ancient aliens" hypotheses, of which I'd suggest there's a weak version and a strong version (weak or strong in boldness, not evidence). The "weak" hypothesis is that sentient beings from another planet traveled through space, visited Earth, and sufficiently impressed ancient Earthlings that they were remembered as gods or some such and inspired mythologies. The "strong" hypothesis is that these aliens also left a mark on the societies they visited, specifically by building or assisting in the building of monumental structures, like Stonehenge or the Pyramids. They did so by some combination of assisting in the design of the monuments, aligning them with the poles or astronomical phenomena etc., or in the actual construction, moving stones around that are allegedly too big for low-tech human societies to move.

Let's not worry about the "weak" hypothesis, this thread is about technology. To be able to make the trip across space, the aliens would need to have far more advanced science and tech than we now have. We have no idea what all they might have been capable of besides space travel. Maybe not much, and they were the equivalent of Mercury astronauts in just a tin can spaceship with huge hyperdrives or something pushing them; maybe a whole lot, and they were the equivalent of a whole aircraft carrier pulling up to an island with stone-age natives inhabiting it, bringing myriad devices and materials with them.

These ancient aliens CAN'T have had a Star-Trek style "prime directive" not to interfere, because the whole premise of the hypothesis is that they DID give their technical aid to the primitive Earthlings.

So if, on the one hand, they contributed to the design of the monuments, why don't the monuments show the signs of design with strong physics knowledge? They aren't even up to medieval levels in their engineering skills.

On the other hand, if they didn't contribute to the design, then the monuments were already designed by those human societies for human purposes. But for some reason the aliens decided to help the humans build something they couldn't have done on their own, lending them the use of their spaceships to airlift big stones into place. But then why were the Earthlings designing monuments they knew they wouldn't be able to build?

As far as the issues of plastics and metals that you keep returning to; that isn't really the nub of the argument. But it's not irrelevant, either. If we're envisioning aliens in a tin-can space module, they wouldn't have much materiel to contribute to a construction project; all they could give was design advice, in which case, see two paragraphs up, and we'd have to acknowledge the Earthlings could move the stones without alien help.

But if we're talking about nuclear-aircraft-carrier visitors, they would have been stocked with spare parts and tools and machinery and so on. Maybe it WOULD have been worthwhile to them, and within their capabilities, to set up a manufacturing chain for plastic or glass or steel. We're talking beings with capabilities far beyond what we can manage, maybe that wouldn't have seemed too much to do for them.

But even without that, any device it would have been in their interest to build for humans, surely they'd think could be done more efficiently than with massive stones. They'd at least jerry-rig something out of materials they had with them, and it would be odd that they left huge stone monuments behind but none of that other stuff. Think of the enormous amount of junk that cruise ships generate. The modern San ("Bushmen") in Africa, notwithstanding the romantic primitivism of "The Gods Must be Crazy," actually DO have Coke bottles and cans and wristwatches and such, things they can't make themselves but picked up through contact with peoples who do have them. Where are the alien Coke bottles in Egyptian sites?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matt-J2 and gln1955
Let's backtrack a bit. I'm talking about "ancient aliens" hypotheses, of which I'd suggest there's a weak version and a strong version (weak or strong in boldness, not evidence). The "weak" hypothesis is that sentient beings from another planet traveled through space, visited Earth, and sufficiently impressed ancient Earthlings that they were remembered as gods or some such and inspired mythologies. The "strong" hypothesis is that these aliens also left a mark on the societies they visited, specifically by building or assisting in the building of monumental structures, like Stonehenge or the Pyramids. They did so by some combination of assisting in the design of the monuments, aligning them with the poles or astronomical phenomena etc., or in the actual construction, moving stones around that are allegedly too big for low-tech human societies to move.

Let's not worry about the "weak" hypothesis, this thread is about technology. To be able to make the trip across space, the aliens would need to have far more advanced science and tech than we now have. We have no idea what all they might have been capable of besides space travel. Maybe not much, and they were the equivalent of Mercury astronauts in just a tin can spaceship with huge hyperdrives or something pushing them; maybe a whole lot, and they were the equivalent of a whole aircraft carrier pulling up to an island with stone-age natives inhabiting it, bringing myriad devices and materials with them.

These ancient aliens CAN'T have had a Star-Trek style "prime directive" not to interfere, because the whole premise of the hypothesis is that they DID give their technical aid to the primitive Earthlings.

So if, on the one hand, they contributed to the design of the monuments, why don't the monuments show the signs of design with strong physics knowledge? They aren't even up to medieval levels in their engineering skills.

On the other hand, if they didn't contribute to the design, then the monuments were already designed by those human societies for human purposes. But for some reason the aliens decided to help the humans build something they couldn't have done on their own, lending them the use of their spaceships to airlift big stones into place. But then why were the Earthlings designing monuments they knew they wouldn't be able to build?

As far as the issues of plastics and metals that you keep returning to; that isn't really the nub of the argument. But it's not irrelevant, either. If we're envisioning aliens in a tin-can space module, they wouldn't have much materiel to contribute to a construction project; all they could give was design advice, in which case, see two paragraphs up, and we'd have to acknowledge the Earthlings could move the stones without alien help.

But if we're talking about nuclear-aircraft-carrier visitors, they would have been stocked with spare parts and tools and machinery and so on. Maybe it WOULD have been worthwhile to them, and within their capabilities, to set up a manufacturing chain for plastic or glass or steel. We're talking beings with capabilities far beyond what we can manage, maybe that wouldn't have seemed too much to do for them.

But even without that, any device it would have been in their interest to build for humans, surely they'd think could be done more efficiently than with massive stones. They'd at least jerry-rig something out of materials they had with them, and it would be odd that they left huge stone monuments behind but none of that other stuff. Think of the enormous amount of junk that cruise ships generate. The modern San ("Bushmen") in Africa, notwithstanding the romantic primitivism of "The Gods Must be Crazy," actually DO have Coke bottles and cans and wristwatches and such, things they can't make themselves but picked up through contact with peoples who do have them. Where are the alien Coke bottles in Egyptian sites?

Also relevant to the story is that in Egypt, for example, the building of pyramids started out with small, simple structures and progressed to larger, more sophisticated designs. If the aliens were there helping, either in design or construction, they should have jumped right into the more advanced structures.

And yes, it seems strange that the aliens would have cleaned up after themselves so completely that not a single clearly alien artifact remains.
 
AkkadianCylinder seal VA243
Coricancha golden panel
The Dropa Stones
The Wedge of Aiud
The London Hammer
The Saqqara bird
The Baghdad battery
The Quimbaya funerary gold jet

Uh...no. None of them are anything made or used by a visiting alien race. Most of those have a rational explanation. The one that seems a bit of mystery, the "battery" is awfully sketchy as a working cell. If aliens were giving battery tech to ancient humans, they would at least give them something that worked well, along with things to use the power stored in them.
 

Trouble is, right or wrong — and clearly so often the case through speculation — one may be leaving the door wide open for conspiracists:) What's the use-by date on a red pill? Drink me.

The boomerang's an interesting piece of kit. Has all the science of an aeroplane wing and was used like one in the process of hunting ducks. Once aloft, the boomerang, thrown by a skillful hunter, would literally hover for a time, like a raptor, and make a freaky noise that always unsettled flocks of waterfowl. A massive net that had been secreted strategically would then be deployed in time to grab a good gaggle.

The boomerang traveled the length and breadth of the country, and, re-engineered, was used for a number of different jobs. And, with the changing environment, many of those uses became redundant. So, up north, you'll see boomerangs, in time, used primarily as clapping sticks while the spear, better equipped to function in the current ecosystem, took the boomerang's place.

Even as musical instruments, they were still traded, like all the rest of the material culture and its products. Country-wide, boomerangs made their presence felt, along the songlines — another technology not to be sneezed at.​
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: hbarcat

Is an ancient cuisine a technology? Fire-stick farming? A Cool Burning question?

Dish it up. It's likely. If you eat well you do well, ongoingly —

"… it appears the first Australians were highly skilled using fire and grinding to prepare yams, roots and tubers …"​

Fire, the ancient drummer. It was critical — is critical still — the rhythm of life, but it's sometimes so poorly understood, even today. Accidents in the historical fire, some of them, we've come to understand as technological progress. In the ancient kitchen, it's always been the focus.
 

Is a humble old river an earth shattering technology? It may well be, when it's used to move mountains?

This idea may be alien but it's now registering as a distinct probability — Found at last: long-lost branch of the Nile that ran by the pyramids

d41586-024-01449-y_27098342.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: David Pinton
So I've been listening to the Rest is History podcast, going through old episodes, and it turns out they did one on Stonehenge a year and a half ago or so. It featured the archeologist Mike Pitts, who, fittingly for that surname, is an archeologist. He actually has a book out titled How to Build Stonehenge.

Someone on the thread a while back insisted that massive blocks of stone couldn't have been moved by a bunch of guys with ropes. Well, actually they could. Pitts explained we know this for a fact because there are islands in Indonesia where the inhabitants still do it, or at least were still doing it in the mid-20th century.

Here's a video Pitts shared on his blog, showing a large block being moved. It's from an island tourist board. Probably not meant to attract western tourists: it's in the local language and there are some violent animal sacrifices as part of the festival depicted in the last three minutes or so of it.


In the process of looking for more about it, I also found this video of a guy in the midwest moving massive blocks in his backyard as a hobby, all with very low tech - he doesn't even use pulleys. And he does it by himself, not with gangs of laborers. It's all balance, gravity, and leverage.


And finally, I also came across this image. Kind of amazing that people dispute the Egyptians could move heavy objects with gangs of labor, ropes, and sledges, when in fact their art depicts them doing exactly that. This is carved in the tomb of Djehuhihotep:
image_1894e-Djehutihotep-painting.jpg


So I bought How to Build Stonehenge, the book whose author I referenced in this post. Really interesting reading, I highly recommend it - tore through it in two or three days (now that the semester's over...).

I'll not rehash it, but I was particularly interested when I got to the chapter on actual construction. It turns out there are hints in the archeology of the site that help reconstruct how it was done, and some of it verifies part of the approach taken by the guy moving blocks around his backyard in the video I showed.

Basically, for the big Sarsen stones in particular (the ones that form the iconic trilithon "arches"), the pits that the stones are sunk into are not dug evenly all around; one side goes down vertically while the other (toward the outside of the circle) is sloped. Also, there are signs of wooden beams that would have formed upright posts on that vertical side of the pit.

Archeologists have a pretty good idea what that means because it matches the way the Easter Island statues get placed. Basically, you slide the stone up next to the pit on a sledge; then you slide posts under it, and, like the guy in the video did, rock it back and forth, each time adding a little material under it to raise it higher and higher. Easter Islanders do it with piles of stones, but the Stonehenge builders would have done it with wood. They're effectively jacking it up and building a scaffold under it as it goes up. Then when it's high enough, using ropes to guide it, you slide it off the scaffold. This is when you need the vertical posts in the pit; they act as guide rails, to prevent the base of the stone from jamming into the pit wall and getting stuck. It slides down into the pit, and with a little extra hauling on ropes, stands vertical. All you need to do then is fill into the sloping "ramp" side of the pit with stones and dirt (a lot of the "hammer" stones that were used to dress the megaliths turn out to have been deposited there) and, voila, you have a standing stone. The horizontal "lintel" stones get jacked up the same way and then swung across the scaffold onto the verticals. The process probably took a couple of weeks per stone and there's only room on the site to do a couple at a time, but on a tight schedule they could have gotten it done in a year before winter fell.

The other thing the book added that I found fascinating (apart from just details about geology and such) was a sense of historical context and change. The site had a "Bluehenge" of the smaller "bluestones" in a circle for hundreds of years before the big sarsen trilithons went up. It seems to have been used for burials for at least part of that time, then that practice was discontinued. After 500 years or so the classic "Stonehenge" relocated and repurposed the bluestones, and the big sarsens kind of surround them, an inner "horseshoe" and then an outer ring, suggested that the bluestones were still important or sacred somehow and the big sarsens kind of amplified or guarded the site. What's also interesting is that there's another site nearby the archeologists call "Woodhenge," identifiable now only from post holes, where it seems the same design - a horseshoe inside a circle - was built in wood. So Stonehenge didn't pop up out of nowhere; the site, and the stones already on it, already had a legacy of being sacred, while the design already existed in the area, but hadn't been done in stone. So the builders around 2500 BC brought the two traditions together.

What's more, pretty soon after construction, there's a new population appearing in Britain, farmers rather than hunter/gatherers with a new pottery style and some metalworking abilities. They seem to have altered the site within a few hundred years of its completion already. The completed Stonehenge's big trilithons stood pretty close together with limited gaps, and the overall vibe is that it's very closed-in, so probably mysterious and secretive, perhaps for a privileged priesthood or initiation rites or something. The newcomers pulled down some (but not all) of them. Why? We don't know. Were they trying to destroy it, but gave up because it was too much work? Were they desecrating it, so a couple of toppled pillars were enough to make the point? Or were they repurposing it for different rituals, maybe something more open and inclusive?