billfitzmaurice said:
No disrespect intended but isn't it true that much of the frequency response information available from cabinet manufacturers is hooey? I've read on TB that they use non-standardized methods so the numbers don't mean much.
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Another 6x10 contender - Mills Acoustics
- Thread starter JGR
- Start date
No disrespect intended but isn't it true that much of the frequency response information available from cabinet manufacturers is hooey? I've read on TB that they use non-standardized methods so the numbers don't mean much.
No disrespect to Bill and the other 'by the specs' cab builders.. while it's good to know how the principals of cabinet design work (knowledge is always a good thing), you guys put way to much stock in the idea that a non T/S spec'd cab is going to sound awful.
A little over half of my cabinets (probably 25ish, maybe a couple more, I forget now over time - mostly personal use, sold a couple, some were tests) have been T/S designed, the other being experiments simply for the sake of 'what would this produce' (empirical study - mentioned earlier). Really, with one exception (exception that proves the rule or something ;-), I haven't had any duds. Building a bass cabinet, while indeed a bit more complex than throwing a speaker in a box (ie: guitar cab ;-), isn't the rocket science you guys always make it out to be.
I've got good ears and I trust them. If a decision had to be made based on what I hear vs. what the numbers say, my ears win out - regardless whether you could make a contrary argument. Hell, as you pointed out, most of the cabinets we consider highly prized vintage classics were designed in this way.
I'm not defending Mills Acoustics (never heard of them til now, certainly haven't heard the cabinet), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt they've got a quality product on their hands until I [literally] hear otherwise.
A little over half of my cabinets (probably 25ish, maybe a couple more, I forget now over time - mostly personal use, sold a couple, some were tests) have been T/S designed, the other being experiments simply for the sake of 'what would this produce' (empirical study - mentioned earlier). Really, with one exception (exception that proves the rule or something ;-), I haven't had any duds. Building a bass cabinet, while indeed a bit more complex than throwing a speaker in a box (ie: guitar cab ;-), isn't the rocket science you guys always make it out to be.
I've got good ears and I trust them. If a decision had to be made based on what I hear vs. what the numbers say, my ears win out - regardless whether you could make a contrary argument. Hell, as you pointed out, most of the cabinets we consider highly prized vintage classics were designed in this way.
I'm not defending Mills Acoustics (never heard of them til now, certainly haven't heard the cabinet), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt they've got a quality product on their hands until I [literally] hear otherwise.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
I'm not in the habit of making comments about specific products. But when the manufacturer makes the statement "Our 610B is designed to be the all-around most versatile single cab on the market and it delivers like no other 10" based cab in existence." he should have factual evidence to back it up. It crosses the line from overly enthusiastic advertising copy to down right hype when the drivers used can not possibly deliver on that promise. Even Celestion would not argue that fact.patrickj said:
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
No disrespect taken. The only valid method of reporting frequency response is with a 1 watt/1 meter SPL chart. To the best of my knowledge only Phil Jones publishes them, and none of the industry periodicals or websites measure response when reviewing them.morebass! said:
A couple things would make me leary about using this cab for bass. First, it's pretty obvious, from the web advertising, that this is primarily a guitar cabinet. One indication is the lack of standard nuetrik connectors, quite common on guitar cabs, but fairly uncommon on todays bass cabs. Second, the lack of useful specs, really, any specs at all, although I'm sure they would provide those if asked. Thirdly, the idea that you would have to pay return shipping, on what is admittedly a new design, without the opportunity to hear the cabinet first. Hey, it might turn out to be one of the greatest bass cabs of all time, but who wants to take that gamble.
But if I understand his comments, the stuff Bill F is suggesting isn't even rocket science. If you only want to predict the basic curves such as sensitivity, cone excursion, and port air speed, then the necessary electromechanical model is at the level of a 3rd year college engineering or physics course. And it has been implemented in free design software.patrickj said:
One way to proceed if your ears disagree with the numbers, is to conduct a measurement, which has also ceased to be rocket science thanks to personal computers. Also, a real disagreement could be due to an error in one of your parameters. I would want to check out something like that. There was a discussion not long ago about a design where it was not known whether the published Vas for the driver was in cubic feet or liters. This was discovered after construction, and the speaker sounded OK, but I would still want to know why.
With no disrespect to your experience, it would seem odd that someone would go out on the market with a commercial product in this day and age, without at least checking the numbers. Also, the maker's effort to demonstrate a basic technical understanding helps lend them credibility that they understand things like cabinet design, Ohms, and power handling.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
For something as elemental as a sealed or vented direct radiator like this, and 99% of the rest of the bass cabs on the market today, a computer literate 7th grader could design the cabinet on his laptop in third period study hall and build it in 4th period Woodshop class. After having Mom schlep it home in the back of her Caravan he could use that same laptop to take detailed SPL and impedance measurements in his back yard, and that evening post the results on the web, on his own site. 3rd year college students these days are designing the laptops that the 7th graders are using.fdeck said:
+1billfitzmaurice said:
Man, that brings back memories of my first cab. I got this book published by Tab Books, containing equations that did not work out when I tried to account for the units of measure, and I had little hope of correcting them. Then I found some method for computing the response curve, and I got on my bike to buy a Timex/Sinclair computer at K-Mart for $29, to do the calculations. My family was under pain of death not to touch the computer or the TV until I was finished with the computation, which took me several days to debug.
The speaker sounded awful, but the formula said it was the only possible cabinet design for the particular driver, so I was lost. So I followed the "just put it in a small sealed box" rule, and it worked well enough to handle the 65 W of my Peavey head in school jazz band.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Math is not my forte, so box programs are a blessing. Even better is CAD. I never had a problem building any shape or design I wanted to, but translating it to plans that others could use wasn't easy, especially with curves and compound angles. With CAD I don't even use pencil and paper anymore and the plans are perfect to the 1/16th of an inch and tenth of a degree.fdeck said:
Truth be told, I prefer to fall back on the box programs too. It just got to be somewhat of an obsession to drill down into the physics.billfitzmaurice said:
I want to see a 6x12. Maybe a folded horn type thing like a cross between a sunn 6x10 and a sun 2x15.
Okie-doke...figured I had better chime in here. First of all, T/S parameters do little more than provide safe internal volume requirements for a particular driver. Build your cab based on these specs alone and you will have a workable cab, but not a killer one. And SPL ratings tell you how loud the cab is across it's EQ range at a given point. They don't describe tone, delivery or articulation. Nor do they describe the thump felt by the fans at the back of the arena. The ONLY way to produce a true powerhouse is to build and tweak and test against your competitors, side-by-side. We use box calcs strictly as a starting point and go from there. As to your description of the BL10-100X as a guitar speaker, I'm quite sure Celestion and our Customers would disagree. In any event, we now run two predominant drivers in our cabs and they are the Celestion BL10-200X and the Eminence Legend BP102. We don't build our cabs for number crunchers...we build for musicians. But of course we have specs available. All of our final designs have been verified by Eminence as well as us. This let's us know the design is safe for the drivers. Putting them on the road and getting feedback from our players is what WE go by. Hearing them next to the others in our shop and on stage tells us if we are on the right path, design-wise. We will be somewhat more aggressive with our marketing during '09 and have just brought on Mr. Brett Twilley as our new Bass Division Manager. Brett is a great guy and a very knowledgeable, smokin' player in his own right. He knows first-hand the difference our design delivers.
We have not spent one nickel to advertise our bass cabs and they are a fairly small part of our business. Always will be, I'm sure. The reason we even build them in the first place is from the many requests we started getting from the bass guys whose guitar rippers are running our Afterburner guitar cabs. The inevitable question was always..."Holy Geezus...can you guys make me a bass cab???". So we finally did. And as to our claim...you bet your ass that we will happily put our 610B up against any 610 in existence. Our guitar cab just won the "Best of '08" Premier Gear award from Premier Guitar mag because of it's real-world performance and build quality. These same design principles are applied to every cab we build....including the bass cabs. You're right about one thing. It ain't "rocket science"...it's TONE science. And it is as much if not more, art and design innovation as it is math. That is a fact. Best regards to all of you "thump meisters" and have a great New Year!
Dave Mills
MILLS Acoustics, USA
I'll say one thing for those cabs...they sure are pretty! And I hear what you're saying, Dave. Still, some published specs info would be helpful if only to get an idea. Specs can be misleading, but when you sell factory direct, they're all we have to go by unless we have a friend with one.
I hear ya. During this past quarter, we did some minor porting adjustments to all the cabs. One of Brett's tasks will be to get all specs updated. We'll also get them down to the studio and get some real-time EQ results for each cab. We just have our hands full for the moment. But they'll get there. Thanks very much.
ok, it's been a few more months. Has anyone purchased a Mills cabinet yet? What Tom from Bass Gear Review?
My guitard buddy just bought a 2x12 and is raving about it. I haven't heard it yet.
My guitard buddy just bought a 2x12 and is raving about it. I haven't heard it yet.
I can vouch for Mills Acoustics. I have a Legend 410B cab as well as a Legend 115B. I run an Ampeg SVT Skunkworks through them with a '74 Precision. They sound great. They project really well and have a lot more clarity (in my opinion) than say, an Ampeg cab. Best money I've ever spent. I've been touring with them 5-6 nights a week since July of this year. I'd be glad to provide any more info. for you guys.
