Another DI question, sorry!

[jadenjazz]

Hello All,

I have read so many threads on this topic but I can't seem to get the answer I'm looking for. I could use some expert help in regards to di boxes. I have 2 main questions:

1.) I understand that one should use a passive di with an active bass and vice versa. (I assume this "rule" applies if you are plugging straight into the di box from the bass?) But... IF you are using the di at the end of your signal, (like I am) after a compressor, chorus, and Bassbone OD preamp, does the above "rule" still apply? Or has it now become a personal preference of what sounds the best? I guess what I'm asking...is the signal still "passive" (coming from my passive AVRI 63 P bass) after it has been run through my chain and the Bassbone, to where it warrants an active di box? I know that I could be using the onboard di box in my Bassbone, but that's not the point.

2.) I'm looking for an alternative to bringing my full pedalboard to some rehearsals and small gigs where we use in-ears and no stage amps. Are there players out there that only use bass>di box>FOH? (I play both an active and a passive bass and I'm thinking of getting a J48 and JDI for these occasions). Do you miss not being able to shape your tone, or are these di boxes adequate to where you don't need to tweak much?

Thanks for your help!

 

[RoadRanger]

There's no prob using an active DI with and active bass. There may or may not be a prob using a passive DI with a passive bass - I've never found it to be a prob but I not much of a cork sniffer . I often go ampless with just a DI. If you don't have access to the EQ on the mixer you might want to use your own - Something like a Sansamp, Behringer BDI21, or MXR M-80 which all also have a DI built-in.

 

[Geri O]

(1) You should have enough gain after that chain of events, I mean effects, to be just fine with the use of a good passive DI. Personally, at this point, you could use an active or a passive DI, it really doesn't matter from my bass-playing AND pro sound perspective. BTW, what IS the point of NOT using the XLR balanced out of the Bassbone? I know several guys that use the Bassbone specifically because of its tone-shaping abilities so they can shape their own tone going to the console, which leads head-long into....

(2) This is personal thing, but I'm perfectly happy to run my bass (AM STD Jazz V w/Nord pups and Aguilar preamp, about to be replaced with a Nord) straight to a DI (my own is a Radial JDI, the church uses a REDDI DI). My basses sound just fine with no other EQ or FX, I have no need to make adjustments to the tone. I use 1964 Ears Quads for monitors.

Like I said, that's just my preference. You'll do fine with your pedalboard straight to a DI and mixer.

And finally, save yourself some time and just set this rig up and try it on yer own. You'll probably have to make some adjustments, but you should get good results with a little experimenting. This really shouldn't require expert help. And besides, who here isn't an expert at some point?

Good luck.

 

[jadenjazz]

BTW, what IS the point of NOT using the XLR balanced out of the Bassbone?

Thanks for the advice! Actually, I do use the XLR out of the Bassbone. But the other day, I borrowed a JDI and connected it to the output of my Bassbone and then used the XLR from the JDI to record into Pro Tools. I A/B them both and liked the JDI tracks a little better. This got me thinking. Very dangerous!

 

[Geri O]

Thanks for the advice! Actually, I do use the XLR out of the Bassbone. But the other day, I borrowed a JDI and connected it to the output of my Bassbone and then used the XLR from the JDI to record into Pro Tools. I A/B them both and liked the JDI tracks a little better. This got me thinking. Very dangerous!

Well, there ya go, then. That's what matters, right? The JDI uses a Jensen transformer which will make for a little different sound. And that's probably what you like about it (I don't go as far as to say one is better than the other, that's for the users to decide). And man, if you like that, you'll absolutely LOVE plugging the Bass Bone into a REDDI DI...(I'm just tweaking you there, but for $700, it better, right?)

I just had to ask. And I'll keep that in mind.

 

[4Mal]

To me, it's too subtle a difference for live work and in the studio, you'd be using some sexy piece like a U5 or REDDI... I personally would wave off the extra box and extra cable... but that's me.

The JDI is a very nice piece of gear. If you were choosing between say a Radial a Pro DI and the JDI, It would be the JDI in a heartbeat. The BassBone is so useful though. Centerpiece of my live rig and the DI I use almost always...

 

[dheafey]

Bass->Tuner->BDDI->Empress Compressor->JDI->IEM Mixer and FOH

This is how I roll. I spent hours swapping stuff back and forth and this is the combo and order that sounds best to me. I found the BDDI a little noisy (hence why I don't use the XLR out on it), but the JDI seems to not only round the sound out but clean up a whole lot of stuff; my rig is deathly quiet now.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Hello All,

I have read so many threads on this topic but I can't seem to get the answer I'm looking for. I could use some expert help in regards to di boxes. I have 2 main questions:

1.) I understand that one should use a passive di with an active bass and vice versa. (I assume this "rule" applies if you are plugging straight into the di box from the bass?) But... IF you are using the di at the end of your signal, (like I am) after a compressor, chorus, and Bassbone OD preamp, does the above "rule" still apply? Or has it now become a personal preference of what sounds the best? I guess what I'm asking...is the signal still "passive" (coming from my passive AVRI 63 P bass) after it has been run through my chain and the Bassbone, to where it warrants an active di box? I know that I could be using the onboard di box in my Bassbone, but that's not the point.

2.) I'm looking for an alternative to bringing my full pedalboard to some rehearsals and small gigs where we use in-ears and no stage amps. Are there players out there that only use bass>di box>FOH? (I play both an active and a passive bass and I'm thinking of getting a J48 and JDI for these occasions). Do you miss not being able to shape your tone, or are these di boxes adequate to where you don't need to tweak much?

Thanks for your help!

1. TL;DR: Once you run the signal through any active device (i.e. any fx pedal) it becomes active and there are no potential problems interfacing it with a passive DI. In most cases there isn't much issue with running a passive bass into a passive DI and some people like what that loading effect does to the sound.

That rule of thumb is based mostly on the impedances involved. In audio, you get the best signal transfer between things by impedance bridging which is a fancy term for driving a high impedance with a low one. Typically, you get the best transfer when the input impedance of the downstream device is at least 10x the output impedance of the upstream one. Passive basses have high output impedances, sometimes 100k Ohms+ so to get best signal transfer you want a preamp or DI box to have an input impedance of around 1M Ohm. This can only be sensibly gotten with an active buffer circuit which is what a typical phantom powered box has. The input impedance of a passive DI is inherently lower than that of an active one because of the qualities of transformers and is actually dependent on the impedance of whatever the DI is connected to on the XLR side. A transformer scales voltage and current up and/or down but it also scales impedance. Voltage and current are scaled by a factor of the turns ratio and impedance is scaled by the square of that ratio. So the input impedance of a passive DI is related to the input impedance of the mixing desk mic preamp by the ratio of the transformer squared. So if we have a JDI which uses a 12:1 transformer, the impedance ratio is 144:1. Typical mic preamps have input impedances in the 1-2k Ohm range which gives the DI an input impedance range of 144k to 288k. Of course you also get an inherent 12:1 (22dB) reduction in your signal voltage, which can be a problem with some low output instruments. Now if your instrument has say 100k output impedance and say we see 144k input Z on the passive DI, that's a further ~6dB signal level loss which may compound the issue. I have occasionally encountered instruments that didn't play well with a JDI because I had to crank the gain at the console so much that noise was a problem. This isn't an issue with an active box as most of them use unity gain (i.e. same level out as level in) buffers which inherently have high input impedance (>1M Ohm) and that input impedance isn't influenced by anything downstream of the DI.

2. Lots of folks do this. In this instance there's very little advantage of a J48 over a JDI. The J48 has really low input impedance for an active box at 220k Ohms. This isn't significantly more than the JDI's input impedance (and would even be less if the mic preamp the JDI was connected to had 2k input impedance). There's probably not much reason you couldn't just use a JDI here but if you wanted to go to an active single box solution just get a Countryman Type 85. Totally bulletproof and every bit as transparent as anything Radial makes. Of course, you could always go fancy with a REDDI or something.

 

[SteveC]

Bass->Tuner->BDDI->Empress Compressor->JDI->IEM Mixer and FOH

This is how I roll. I spent hours swapping stuff back and forth and this is the combo and order that sounds best to me. I found the BDDI a little noisy (hence why I don't use the XLR out on it), but the JDI seems to not only round the sound out but clean up a whole lot of stuff; my rig is deathly quiet now.

I go bass - tuner - comp - JDI - FOH/IEM. Tough to beat...but I keep looking.

 

[jadenjazz]

Gentlemen, thanks for the replies! This has been very helpful and informative for me. And Mark, I really appreciate your time and the many details in your post! Thanks.